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>one of the most jarring things about traveling in Europe to me was the extent to which my identity was routinely challenged. Could you elaborate on that? Ther

by Udo 13y ago

>one of the most jarring things about traveling in Europe to me was the extent to which my identity was routinely challenged. Could you elaborate on that? There are a lot of countries where no passport control at all is taking place if you're coming in from another EU country. Granted, as a EU citizen I might have an easier time moving around overall, but in my experience the EU feels more like one big country than a patchwork of smaller ones - and I move around here a lot. Going on a cross-country flight within the US is usually significantly more hassle than hopping from Frankfurt to Oslo. Once you're in the EU you should be able to move freely. What happened to you?

tptacek 13y ago
Nothing bad; I was just routinely forced to hand over my passport. And, on a train from Zurich to Prague, my bags were taken off the overhead rack and searched. Remember, when we Americans want to make the point that we're different from Europe, we say "papers, please!" to make fun of it. The idea is supposed to be that we don't do "papers, please!" here. Unfortunately, we've lost a bit of that in the last 15 years, but we're still only approaching Europe.
- Udo 13y ago
  > Unfortunately, we've lost a bit of that in the last 15 years, but we're still only approaching Europe. You say that with a degree of certainty that deserves to be challenged. You can travel through large swaths of the EU without showing your passport even once. This week I was in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, and Germany all by car, all without needing my passport (except hotels, but they do that everywhere in the world). Although it has gotten stricter in the last few years, flights from Germany to Norway, Sweden, or Denmark could routinely be boarded without showing any ID until recently. I live near the French border in Germany, but you wouldn't even know when you're crossing it. In "heartland" Europe, there are often no border stations at all. Sometimes you just notice you changed countries because the street signs look slightly different. Compared to a lot of other countries, including the US, EU police are doing almost no traffic stops or other forms of public "papers, please" checks. The last time I was in a traffic stop was about 5 years ago, and I accrue about 50k kilometers a year. Compare that to a random Asian country where police are sometimes lying in wait near ambiguous signage in order to catch expensive-looking rental cars passing through, or compare that to a rural sheriff in a southern US state who likes to capture (and throw in jail for a few hours with great fanfare) people passing by in out-of-state cars when they predictably go a little above the draconian speed limit on the completely empty and straight highway. In Cairo, you can't even drive downtown from the airport without being stopped for ID at least twice. Maybe I'm missing a bit of the picture because I don't like to go by train, but overall movement in Europe seems a lot less restricted than pretty much everywhere else I've been to.
  - X4 13y ago
    I'm sorry, but you both don't understand it. The police has training in identifying persons of interest or suspicious looking people. Tourists are more routinely controlled, but I believe that black persons are more often controlled for their passports (because police suspect them of staying illegal in the country, or it's simply racism, idk). I can say that, because I travel a lot, with all types of public transportation. WIth a car you only have ID-Checks at borders, sometimes.
    - Udo 13y ago
      I'm sure both of us understand that. It's just that we're talking from personal experience which in tptacek's case led to him asserting that the EU is a thoroughly "paper's please" region, whereas the US is simply catching up. In response to this I felt compelled to counter that notion as I believe it's not factual. If I was in a polemic mood I'd have asserted that where ever restrictions on freedom are introduced in Europe, it's because they're emulating the US in that regard, not the other way around.

by Udo 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

Nothing bad; I was just routinely forced to hand over my passport. And, on a train from Zurich to Prague, my bags were taken off the overhead rack and searched. Remember, when we Americans want to make the point that we're different from Europe, we say "papers, please!" to make fun of it. The idea is supposed to be that we don't do "papers, please!" here. Unfortunately, we've lost a bit of that in the last 15 years, but we're still only approaching Europe.

Udo 13y ago
> Unfortunately, we've lost a bit of that in the last 15 years, but we're still only approaching Europe. You say that with a degree of certainty that deserves to be challenged. You can travel through large swaths of the EU without showing your passport even once. This week I was in France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, and Germany all by car, all without needing my passport (except hotels, but they do that everywhere in the world). Although it has gotten stricter in the last few years, flights from Germany to Norway, Sweden, or Denmark could routinely be boarded without showing any ID until recently. I live near the French border in Germany, but you wouldn't even know when you're crossing it. In "heartland" Europe, there are often no border stations at all. Sometimes you just notice you changed countries because the street signs look slightly different. Compared to a lot of other countries, including the US, EU police are doing almost no traffic stops or other forms of public "papers, please" checks. The last time I was in a traffic stop was about 5 years ago, and I accrue about 50k kilometers a year. Compare that to a random Asian country where police are sometimes lying in wait near ambiguous signage in order to catch expensive-looking rental cars passing through, or compare that to a rural sheriff in a southern US state who likes to capture (and throw in jail for a few hours with great fanfare) people passing by in out-of-state cars when they predictably go a little above the draconian speed limit on the completely empty and straight highway. In Cairo, you can't even drive downtown from the airport without being stopped for ID at least twice. Maybe I'm missing a bit of the picture because I don't like to go by train, but overall movement in Europe seems a lot less restricted than pretty much everywhere else I've been to.
- X4 13y ago
  I'm sorry, but you both don't understand it. The police has training in identifying persons of interest or suspicious looking people. Tourists are more routinely controlled, but I believe that black persons are more often controlled for their passports (because police suspect them of staying illegal in the country, or it's simply racism, idk). I can say that, because I travel a lot, with all types of public transportation. WIth a car you only have ID-Checks at borders, sometimes.
  - Udo 13y ago
    I'm sure both of us understand that. It's just that we're talking from personal experience which in tptacek's case led to him asserting that the EU is a thoroughly "paper's please" region, whereas the US is simply catching up. In response to this I felt compelled to counter that notion as I believe it's not factual. If I was in a polemic mood I'd have asserted that where ever restrictions on freedom are introduced in Europe, it's because they're emulating the US in that regard, not the other way around.