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Search for Ilkka Kokkarinen's comment.

earl 17y ago
Gah. People who think that the poor are lazy and shiftless are scum. Some of the poor maybe be lazy and shiftless, but having middle class / wealthy parents doesn't just give you money and education and health -- it also gives you the very habits and abilities (saving, studying, deferring rewards, working hard, etc) that keep people from being poor or staying poor. Even things like applying to college are different if you have parents who can help guide you through the process -- I read a heartrending account of a (poor) child who got a scholarship to go to a private high school but his parents couldn't afford the transportation and he didn't have the institutional knowledge to know that if they'd told the school that, the school would have helped. So he declined a great education for the lack of $400. Growing up middle or upper class also gives you all the social markers people look for -- whether it's straight, clean teeth, the ability (and skill) to dress appropriately for a variety of social situations, the proper manners to eat in a range of restaurants from a greasy spoon to a 3 star Michelin, a good suit to go to interviews, acne medication so you don't have acne scars, the ability to make small conversation about art, etc. If you read the literature, most Americans drastically overestimate the social mobility of America and are shocked when they hear how very heritable wealth is.
- jerf 17y ago
  You sort of contradict yourself there. You decry people who think the poor are "lazy and shiftless", then go on to explain why the poor are shiftless. Explaining why someone is shiftless doesn't make them not shiftless. It may help you figure out a better way to address the problem, but merely explaining the problem doesn't change it. Note I dropped the "lazy" qualifier. I'm not convinced that doesn't cut across social classes pretty freely, nor did you talk about it at all. I do broadly agree, though. Many programs to "help the poor" amount to throwing money at them, but that doesn't strike at the root causes at all, which I think you're largely correct about. Pouring water into a leaky bucket doesn't help; you need to fix the leaks.
  - ahoyhere 17y ago
    Shiftless? The story about the kid? The kid is not shiftless. Were his parents shiftless? Possibly, but there's nothing in the story to indicate that they were anything but ignorant (e.g. didn't know there might be help available).
    - jerf 17y ago
      How hard exactly did you search for the exact sentence out of that post that, if I was solely responding to that, would invalidate my point? You have to do your part when reading other people's arguments and at least try to find out why they might have a point, instead of searching for the exact angle that doesn't make sense. That pessimizes the information content you can get from someone; there's always an angle where it's wrong, no matter how you have to torture the English to get there, but because that's always true, that's information-free. Incidentally, make sure you know what the term means, I had to look it up myself to make sure I wasn't misusing it: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiftless http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiftless
      - ahoyhere 17y ago
        It took about 10 seconds, because that was my immediate reaction and I didn't see anything else in your post to contradict it. And I did look up shiftless beforehand. Maybe you should consider that your arguments aren't half as clear as you think they are?
- mynameishere 17y ago
  It's pretty wild that you could discount personal responsibility to the favor of things like "proper manners" at a 3 star and Acne medication. I'm tempted to put responsibility at #1 for everyone who wasn't born with some obvious disadvantage (living in a 3rd world slum or having a serious disability.)
  - davidmathers 17y ago
    I'm tempted to say "fuck you and your ignorance" because, honestly, that's a pretty offensive thing to say. My own escape from poverty had nothing to do with personally responsibility, but had everything to do with winning the genetic IQ lottery and being in the right place at the right time. It's true what they say about walking a mile in their shoes. You really have no idea what it's like.
    - mynameishere 17y ago
      I'm not tempted to say "fuck you" since I don't know you, but I will point out that people in a wide range of IQs are capable of lucrative trades and professions http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx
      - cabalamat 17y ago
        You're right, but it's also true that having a high IQ gives one an immense advantage.
        stavrianos 17y ago
        It's worth pointing out that IQ's advantage is a diminishing return. I imagine that the advantage is in how many people you're smarter than, rather that in how smart you ultimately are.
        cabalamat 17y ago
        I think it's a bit of both: absolute IQ is important, because it determines what cognitive tasks you can do, and because if you have destructive or sub-optimal personal habits, high IQ means it's more likely you will notice and diagnose them.

earl 17y ago

Gah. People who think that the poor are lazy and shiftless are scum. Some of the poor maybe be lazy and shiftless, but having middle class / wealthy parents doesn't just give you money and education and health -- it also gives you the very habits and abilities (saving, studying, deferring rewards, working hard, etc) that keep people from being poor or staying poor. Even things like applying to college are different if you have parents who can help guide you through the process -- I read a heartrending account of a (poor) child who got a scholarship to go to a private high school but his parents couldn't afford the transportation and he didn't have the institutional knowledge to know that if they'd told the school that, the school would have helped. So he declined a great education for the lack of $400. Growing up middle or upper class also gives you all the social markers people look for -- whether it's straight, clean teeth, the ability (and skill) to dress appropriately for a variety of social situations, the proper manners to eat in a range of restaurants from a greasy spoon to a 3 star Michelin, a good suit to go to interviews, acne medication so you don't have acne scars, the ability to make small conversation about art, etc. If you read the literature, most Americans drastically overestimate the social mobility of America and are shocked when they hear how very heritable wealth is.

jerf 17y ago
You sort of contradict yourself there. You decry people who think the poor are "lazy and shiftless", then go on to explain why the poor are shiftless. Explaining why someone is shiftless doesn't make them not shiftless. It may help you figure out a better way to address the problem, but merely explaining the problem doesn't change it. Note I dropped the "lazy" qualifier. I'm not convinced that doesn't cut across social classes pretty freely, nor did you talk about it at all. I do broadly agree, though. Many programs to "help the poor" amount to throwing money at them, but that doesn't strike at the root causes at all, which I think you're largely correct about. Pouring water into a leaky bucket doesn't help; you need to fix the leaks.
- ahoyhere 17y ago
  Shiftless? The story about the kid? The kid is not shiftless. Were his parents shiftless? Possibly, but there's nothing in the story to indicate that they were anything but ignorant (e.g. didn't know there might be help available).
  - jerf 17y ago
    How hard exactly did you search for the exact sentence out of that post that, if I was solely responding to that, would invalidate my point? You have to do your part when reading other people's arguments and at least try to find out why they might have a point, instead of searching for the exact angle that doesn't make sense. That pessimizes the information content you can get from someone; there's always an angle where it's wrong, no matter how you have to torture the English to get there, but because that's always true, that's information-free. Incidentally, make sure you know what the term means, I had to look it up myself to make sure I wasn't misusing it: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiftless http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shiftless
    - ahoyhere 17y ago
      It took about 10 seconds, because that was my immediate reaction and I didn't see anything else in your post to contradict it. And I did look up shiftless beforehand. Maybe you should consider that your arguments aren't half as clear as you think they are?
mynameishere 17y ago
It's pretty wild that you could discount personal responsibility to the favor of things like "proper manners" at a 3 star and Acne medication. I'm tempted to put responsibility at #1 for everyone who wasn't born with some obvious disadvantage (living in a 3rd world slum or having a serious disability.)
- davidmathers 17y ago
  I'm tempted to say "fuck you and your ignorance" because, honestly, that's a pretty offensive thing to say. My own escape from poverty had nothing to do with personally responsibility, but had everything to do with winning the genetic IQ lottery and being in the right place at the right time. It's true what they say about walking a mile in their shoes. You really have no idea what it's like.
  - mynameishere 17y ago
    I'm not tempted to say "fuck you" since I don't know you, but I will point out that people in a wide range of IQs are capable of lucrative trades and professions http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx
    - cabalamat 17y ago
      You're right, but it's also true that having a high IQ gives one an immense advantage.
      - stavrianos 17y ago
        It's worth pointing out that IQ's advantage is a diminishing return. I imagine that the advantage is in how many people you're smarter than, rather that in how smart you ultimately are.
        cabalamat 17y ago
        I think it's a bit of both: absolute IQ is important, because it determines what cognitive tasks you can do, and because if you have destructive or sub-optimal personal habits, high IQ means it's more likely you will notice and diagnose them.