5 ms·

The YC Deadline Brings Out Stupid Decisions in Another Applicant Team

12 points by ahsonwardak 19y ago

dfranke 19y ago
I don't see why you think it's unethical for them to try to poach your partner. It's not like he's some helpless pawn in this game, especially if he's as smart as you say he is. If I thought I had a chance at getting one of my competitor's best people to come work for me instead, I'd jump on it in an instant.
- ahsonwardak 19y ago
  Fine, it's not unethical, but it's stupid. Did they think they had a shot after one run-in at a bar? Would you join another team after running into them at a bar with no knowledge of their idea?
  - rms 19y ago
    I think you're being overly emotional here, they didn't think their offer through. Which makes it stupid, not malicious.
  - dfranke 19y ago
    What are you saying is stupid? Wanting him, or thinking they could get him? If you all went to undergrad together, then it's possible they know more about his talent than either of you realize. I certainly have classmates who didn't know me very well, who, while I wouldn't take them as the other half of a two-man team, I would take them as a third or fourth man give that I already had one committed partner. And while their chances at success may have been slim, it's not like the attempt required much of an investment.
    - ahsonwardak 19y ago
      It was stupid that they thought they could get him. Of course, he's good. They should have wanted him, but he also barely knew my partner during undergrad. And we were actually pretty good friends before this incident.
      - rms 19y ago
        I doubt they thought they could get him, but they probably figured it couldn't hurt to ask, which turned out to be false.
- pius 19y ago
  Haha, I'm curious who this is about since I know the OP. Anyway, I think it's a poorly executed attempt at being unethical. If you had a friendship with the person who tried to poach, that person should have realized that he was going to dagger your relationship by trying to steal your partner without even pitching an idea. Given that your partner is very tight with you (and apparently barely knows the poacher), obviously the incident was going to get back to you . . . one would have expected that the poacher would have tried to partner with you guys or, at the very least, have made a damn compelling argument for why your partner would ditch you. If you're gonna be shady, you've gotta be strategic about it at least. LOL
- edw519 19y ago
  "I don't see why you think it's unethical for them to try to poach your partner." This is Arthur Anderson thinking, not Y Combinator thinking. If you jumped on one of my best people "in an instant", then you better be prepared to set aside resources to deal with me. Are you sure you really want to do that?
  - dfranke 19y ago
    If Arthur Andersen thinking is defined as "don't take petty crap like this personally, and focus your brain cycles on MSPW", then I have to side with Arthur Andersen. But I suspect that this is a matter on which Paul Graham and David Duncan would be in agreement.
    - edw519 19y ago
      "It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business." And it certainly isn't petty. I don't care how much technical talent you have, if you're not prepared to compete in business, whatever the threat, you're toast. Poaching my people is crossing the line. And I don't care what Paul Graham, David Duncan, or anyone else thinks. On this issue, you shouldn't either. Ethics is non-negotiable.
      - dfranke 19y ago
        "If you're not prepared to compete in business, whatever the threat, you're toast." "Poaching my people is crossing the line." Those two statements look juxtaposed to me. It sounds to me like you're the one who isn't prepared to compete if you aren't willing to pose such a threat to your competitors, or to contend with it when you're on the receiving end.
        edw519 19y ago
        I'm prepared to compete and have to scars to show for it. I compete by doing the right thing and offering better value to my customers, not by a slime-ball back-door gimmicks, like commandeering others' IP, slamming my competitors, and yes, poaching co-founders in a bar.
- Xichekolas 19y ago
  Yeah, the way this is written it sounds like "your hacker" is Dustin Hoffman in Rainman, and you are his caretaker or something. On a side note: I had no idea YC teams were this competitive with each other. I still had the image of one big Nerd Summer Camp that happened to spit out companies and connections. This makes it sound more like the Skull and Bones guys competing to meet the President at Secret Meeting X.
  - SwellJoe 19y ago
    "I had no idea YC teams were this competitive with each other." As far as I've seen, they are not (and, neither of these teams is a YC team...they are YC applicants, along with 400+ other teams). The teams tend to be very well-equipped coming into the game and don't really feel the need to break up other teams before they've had a run at it. When a couple of companies fizzled out after the program, I suspect there was a bit of competition for who would get some of the folks from those no longer existent companies, but I'm sure it was friendly (at least I can't imagine any way it could have been otherwise...everybody is still friendly at the events). Others started working on new ideas of their own rather than joining an existing YC company.
breck 19y ago
I'd like to hear the story from your partner's point of view. Could you please send me his name, email address, phone number, coding background and resume?
brett 19y ago
Since when is trying to recruit talented people stupid?
- rms 19y ago
  It was ill considered in that they didn't consider the enormous impact the loss of a partner would have on the original poster.
  - brett 19y ago
    I'll concede that my question over simplifies the issue: Burning bridges is bad, you can definitely be stupid about how you try to recruit talent ... But whenever someone comes to work with/for you they're likely precluded for working for/with someone else. Sure there could be reasons not to try and poach someone, but in general I don't think you are responsible for the person/company left behind.
chaostheory 19y ago
seeing the words "unethical", "poaching", and "boneheaded" in ahsonwardak's post; it's interesting to note that ahsonwardak is currently living in Washington DC...
jmpeters 19y ago
molehill != mountain
- edw519 19y ago
  poaching == (-balls)
jsjenkins168 19y ago
I think you just saved yourself from what could have eventually been a huge headache. I'm assuming since you are applying for funding from YC that you are looking to start a company (YC acceptance or not). If that is the case, you should be glad that you weeded out someone weak while it is easy and not later on down the road. This could be a valuable lesson: Choose who you work with and trust very carefully! If this guy can get up and jet on you this easily, think what would have happened after you actually started and financial and emotional stress enters the equation? My advice is go find someone who you can really trust as a co-founder. Someone you know you can depend on when the going gets tough.
edw519 19y ago
"...I don't want to bury anyone else's reputation..." That's not for you to decide. If what they did was unethical, then you have a responsibility to share. If it wasn't, then anything you say won't matter anyway. I place ethics more important than anything else when considering partners. WAY more important that skill, work ethic, or connections. Take it from someone who has been burned more than once by lying, cheating, stealing, and backroom deals that my partners thought were "no big deal". F*ck 'em. They'll never get a second chance with me. Never. You're probably tempted to say nothing so you don't offend. Don't. Spare the rest of the community the same potential headache and tell the whole story. (Personally, if someone tried to poach my partner, only one of us would leave the room alive. This isn't a game anymore.)
deleted 19y ago
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- deleted 19y ago
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caveman82 19y ago
Hey folks, I am indeed the notorious "poacher" and the poster boy for unethical YC practices. View my response here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=62109 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=62109
- pius 19y ago
  What the hell? I know everyone involved apparently . . .
ahsonwardak 19y ago
If I had known that this would devolve into a public shouting match, I would not have posted this in a public forum. As far as I am concerned, I only intended to vent on my blog and this forum about something that upset me. I am disappointed that we didn't raise the level of discourse, instead it ended up being a free-for-all. I'm over it. It's a dead issue.

12 points by ahsonwardak 19y ago

I don't see why you think it's unethical for them to try to poach your partner. It's not like he's some helpless pawn in this game, especially if he's as smart as you say he is. If I thought I had a chance at getting one of my competitor's best people to come work for me instead, I'd jump on it in an instant.

ahsonwardak 19y ago
Fine, it's not unethical, but it's stupid. Did they think they had a shot after one run-in at a bar? Would you join another team after running into them at a bar with no knowledge of their idea?
- rms 19y ago
  I think you're being overly emotional here, they didn't think their offer through. Which makes it stupid, not malicious.
- dfranke 19y ago
  What are you saying is stupid? Wanting him, or thinking they could get him? If you all went to undergrad together, then it's possible they know more about his talent than either of you realize. I certainly have classmates who didn't know me very well, who, while I wouldn't take them as the other half of a two-man team, I would take them as a third or fourth man give that I already had one committed partner. And while their chances at success may have been slim, it's not like the attempt required much of an investment.
  - ahsonwardak 19y ago
    It was stupid that they thought they could get him. Of course, he's good. They should have wanted him, but he also barely knew my partner during undergrad. And we were actually pretty good friends before this incident.
    - rms 19y ago
      I doubt they thought they could get him, but they probably figured it couldn't hurt to ask, which turned out to be false.
pius 19y ago
Haha, I'm curious who this is about since I know the OP. Anyway, I think it's a poorly executed attempt at being unethical. If you had a friendship with the person who tried to poach, that person should have realized that he was going to dagger your relationship by trying to steal your partner without even pitching an idea. Given that your partner is very tight with you (and apparently barely knows the poacher), obviously the incident was going to get back to you . . . one would have expected that the poacher would have tried to partner with you guys or, at the very least, have made a damn compelling argument for why your partner would ditch you. If you're gonna be shady, you've gotta be strategic about it at least. LOL
edw519 19y ago
"I don't see why you think it's unethical for them to try to poach your partner." This is Arthur Anderson thinking, not Y Combinator thinking. If you jumped on one of my best people "in an instant", then you better be prepared to set aside resources to deal with me. Are you sure you really want to do that?
- dfranke 19y ago
  If Arthur Andersen thinking is defined as "don't take petty crap like this personally, and focus your brain cycles on MSPW", then I have to side with Arthur Andersen. But I suspect that this is a matter on which Paul Graham and David Duncan would be in agreement.
  - edw519 19y ago
    "It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business." And it certainly isn't petty. I don't care how much technical talent you have, if you're not prepared to compete in business, whatever the threat, you're toast. Poaching my people is crossing the line. And I don't care what Paul Graham, David Duncan, or anyone else thinks. On this issue, you shouldn't either. Ethics is non-negotiable.
    - dfranke 19y ago
      "If you're not prepared to compete in business, whatever the threat, you're toast." "Poaching my people is crossing the line." Those two statements look juxtaposed to me. It sounds to me like you're the one who isn't prepared to compete if you aren't willing to pose such a threat to your competitors, or to contend with it when you're on the receiving end.
      - edw519 19y ago
        I'm prepared to compete and have to scars to show for it. I compete by doing the right thing and offering better value to my customers, not by a slime-ball back-door gimmicks, like commandeering others' IP, slamming my competitors, and yes, poaching co-founders in a bar.
Xichekolas 19y ago
Yeah, the way this is written it sounds like "your hacker" is Dustin Hoffman in Rainman, and you are his caretaker or something. On a side note: I had no idea YC teams were this competitive with each other. I still had the image of one big Nerd Summer Camp that happened to spit out companies and connections. This makes it sound more like the Skull and Bones guys competing to meet the President at Secret Meeting X.
- SwellJoe 19y ago
  "I had no idea YC teams were this competitive with each other." As far as I've seen, they are not (and, neither of these teams is a YC team...they are YC applicants, along with 400+ other teams). The teams tend to be very well-equipped coming into the game and don't really feel the need to break up other teams before they've had a run at it. When a couple of companies fizzled out after the program, I suspect there was a bit of competition for who would get some of the folks from those no longer existent companies, but I'm sure it was friendly (at least I can't imagine any way it could have been otherwise...everybody is still friendly at the events). Others started working on new ideas of their own rather than joining an existing YC company.

breck 19y ago

I'd like to hear the story from your partner's point of view. Could you please send me his name, email address, phone number, coding background and resume?

brett 19y ago

Since when is trying to recruit talented people stupid?

rms 19y ago
It was ill considered in that they didn't consider the enormous impact the loss of a partner would have on the original poster.
- brett 19y ago
  I'll concede that my question over simplifies the issue: Burning bridges is bad, you can definitely be stupid about how you try to recruit talent ... But whenever someone comes to work with/for you they're likely precluded for working for/with someone else. Sure there could be reasons not to try and poach someone, but in general I don't think you are responsible for the person/company left behind.

chaostheory 19y ago

seeing the words "unethical", "poaching", and "boneheaded" in ahsonwardak's post; it's interesting to note that ahsonwardak is currently living in Washington DC...

jmpeters 19y ago

molehill != mountain

edw519 19y ago
poaching == (-balls)

jsjenkins168 19y ago

I think you just saved yourself from what could have eventually been a huge headache. I'm assuming since you are applying for funding from YC that you are looking to start a company (YC acceptance or not). If that is the case, you should be glad that you weeded out someone weak while it is easy and not later on down the road. This could be a valuable lesson: Choose who you work with and trust very carefully! If this guy can get up and jet on you this easily, think what would have happened after you actually started and financial and emotional stress enters the equation? My advice is go find someone who you can really trust as a co-founder. Someone you know you can depend on when the going gets tough.

edw519 19y ago

"...I don't want to bury anyone else's reputation..." That's not for you to decide. If what they did was unethical, then you have a responsibility to share. If it wasn't, then anything you say won't matter anyway. I place ethics more important than anything else when considering partners. WAY more important that skill, work ethic, or connections. Take it from someone who has been burned more than once by lying, cheating, stealing, and backroom deals that my partners thought were "no big deal". F*ck 'em. They'll never get a second chance with me. Never. You're probably tempted to say nothing so you don't offend. Don't. Spare the rest of the community the same potential headache and tell the whole story. (Personally, if someone tried to poach my partner, only one of us would leave the room alive. This isn't a game anymore.)

deleted 19y ago

[deleted]

deleted 19y ago
[deleted]

caveman82 19y ago

Hey folks, I am indeed the notorious "poacher" and the poster boy for unethical YC practices. View my response here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=62109 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=62109

pius 19y ago
What the hell? I know everyone involved apparently . . .

ahsonwardak 19y ago

If I had known that this would devolve into a public shouting match, I would not have posted this in a public forum. As far as I am concerned, I only intended to vent on my blog and this forum about something that upset me. I am disappointed that we didn't raise the level of discourse, instead it ended up being a free-for-all. I'm over it. It's a dead issue.