7 ms·

Plan 9 ported to the Raspberry Pi

96 points by synchronise 13y ago

aconz2 13y ago
I don't think it's a good choice to link directly to a file like that. Perhaps an article on the release would have been better.
- RexRollman 13y ago
  Agreed.
- leif 13y ago
  Especially for us mobile users.
darkarmani 13y ago
That just looks like a tarfile. Anyone could host a tarfile and call it plan9.
- synchronise 13y ago
  It's hosted at Bell Labs
  - darkarmani 13y ago
    I stand corrected. Anyone at Bell labs, could host a tarfile and call it plan9.
- RichardMiller 13y ago
  Actually it's a compressed image of a bootable SD card containing a full Plan 9 distribution, including all source code for ARM, x86, powerpc and MIPS.
Mithrandir 13y ago
Previous discussion on getting it running: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4855023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4855023 And here's a video of it being demonstrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZELOUIyvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZELOUIyvw
- enqk 13y ago
  Looking at the video, I think plan9 would have a potential consumer future if it had great typography and fonts.
  - enqk 13y ago
    This comment was made in the most positive way possible. Not sure why it was treated as it was non constructive or negative .
- Mithrandir 13y ago
  The server is still really slow, so I made a mirror: https://ubuntuone.com/5k7x6BwtO1g3i643pyxhnf https://ubuntuone.com/5k7x6BwtO1g3i643pyxhnf (sha256sum: 015e5a8b5b8a438a0c30558708b4d05e610f2ef152174555a9e791596b3dd980)
gbin 13y ago
lol, PAAAH the image !
beshrkayali 13y ago
Now this could become handy: http://code.google.com/p/go-plan9/ http://code.google.com/p/go-plan9/
- mortdeus 13y ago
  plan9 support is maintained with the main go repo.
  - beshrkayali 13y ago
    I didn't know that. Cool!
    - oscargrouch 13y ago
      if we think a little bit, go is also a way to have a plan9 runtime that works as a guest in every os :)
- oscargrouch 13y ago
  i would love to see just the opposite.. plan9-go a plan9 kernel and tools all coded in go. but go is a first class citizen when you think of something like raspberry.. you can think golang wherever you can think of python
  - graue 13y ago
    You can't write a kernel in Go because it has a mandatory runtime system and garbage collection. However, Mozilla's Rust language is similar in some ways, can work runtime-less, and a small demo kernel has been written in it: https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot
    - read_again 13y ago
      > You can't write a kernel in Go because it has a mandatory runtime system and garbage collection. Could you please provide a link or two on that, or give some explanation on why this is not possible?
hardwaresofton 13y ago
For those who might have been curious, one of the folders present when he opened acme was named ピテャゴラスイッチ, it's a japanese children's show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PythagoraSwitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PythagoraSwitch I'm not sure why it was there... But just in case you wondered.
- ics 13y ago
  My eye went straight to it as well but more because I had passively (embarrassingly) assumed that Plan9 didn't have non-western fonts by default. 'twas a silly thought. http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/utf http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/utf
  - webreac 13y ago
    At least Plan9 did something wrong. UTF8 is so superior to this silly 16bits encoding.
    - errnoh 13y ago
      Yes, and that's why they (Rob Pike & ken) created UTF-8 and converted Plan9 to use it. see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt
  - webreac 13y ago
    At least Plan9 did something wrong. UTF8 is so superior to this silly 16bits encoding.
- agumonkey 13y ago
  Videos of that show on youtube are quite amusing and relaxing (goldberg machines).
stormbrew 13y ago
Every time something to do with Plan 9 comes up I lament the fact that the most elegant elements of its design have failed to be realized in practical terms in other operating systems. When they are realized, they usually lose the elegance. Mostly I think about union mounts (which are very different in plan9 than the version that's been integrated into Linux) and the privilege escalation system (which has always seemed, to me, to be so much better than the sieve that is setuid). (Note: I'm aware there have been attempts to bring purer versions of these things to linux, but they never gain any traction)
- miga 13y ago
  Not to forget per-process fs namespace, and text-only replacement of ugly ioctls.
  - justincormack 13y ago
    Linux does have per process fs namespaces now... ioctls on the other hand...
    - 4ad 13y ago
      In Linux CLONE_NEWNS requires CAP_SYS_ADMIN which makes it almost completely useless; it can't be used to the extent and in the way it is used in Plan 9.
      - justincormack 13y ago
        I think user namespaces allow that without root. Haven't tried yet though...
      - yrro 13y ago
        I believe once you create a user namespace (https://lwn.net/Articles/528078/ https://lwn.net/Articles/528078/) you can then create the other kinds of namespaces (mount, process, etc.) without requiring privileges outside of your user namespace. LWN ran a great series on namespaces recently: part 5 (https://lwn.net/Articles/532593/ https://lwn.net/Articles/532593/) covers user namespaces.
miga 13y ago
What performance may we expect?
- mseepgood 13y ago
  Watch the video to get an impression. He compiles the kernel in ~1 minute.
miga 13y ago
What performance may we expect? Is there Linux emulation lib? Or at least package database based on Debian sources?
- yuhong 13y ago
  I think there is APE for compiling and porting UNIX programs.
- jff 13y ago
  > What performance may we expect? It'll feel very snappy until you try to actually do a lot of computation, especially I/O. This is the curse of Plan 9. > Is there Linux emulation lib? Not for ARM. > Or at least package database based on Debian sources? This doesn't even make sense.
jacquesm 13y ago
Every time I read about Plan 9 I get a little sad. Unix is so good at what it does that the better enemy of the good doesn't stand a chance. There are lots of better alternatives to Unix out there. But with the incumbents strengths being what they are I think we'll be stuck with Unix for a long time to come. Possibly the only thing that will change this is if it is ever deemed that the Unix model is inherently broken from a security point of view and one of these other alternatives provides a fix. Performance and conceptual models are not enough to ditch decades of investment in technology that is good enough.
- RBerenguel 13y ago
  I'm getting a new Macbook in a few days (after 5 years with my current machine I desperately need an upgrade) and I'll leave this one for a permanent virtual machine with Plan9 on it. In some sense it will be my "just write, no idle browsing" machine." There's something about Plan9 I find great.
- illumen 13y ago
  Linux is better. In comparison, Plan 9 is like primordial soup, whereas Linux is an advanced alien life from from the future. There are so many parts of Linux that are far better than Plan 9, and polished for production work loads. Real life solutions are sometimes messy, and take many evolutions to get right. Sure, elegant and simple maths is good. But if the maths is just wrong, and doesn't work, then the more complicated maths that actually works is better.
  - synchronise 13y ago
    I would lean towards the opposite. Plan 9 is a creature that was designed well from day one, but initially limited by restrictive licensing. Linux is probably one of the largest hack and slash jobs in programming history, but it was available under very free and liberal terms from the beginning and development was open to everyone, hence it garnered more community support and as a result was more successful.
    - 13y ago
RexRollman 13y ago
I really need to run Plan 9 again. I haven't done so since the late 90's. (I also thought that Oberon was pretty interesting too.) EDIT: With so many former Bell employees there, my personal fantasy is that Google would takes over Plan 9 and starts releasing images of it for Chromebooks. I know its not going to happen but I think that would be sweet.
wmat 13y ago
This has been out for awhile now. For a complete list of bootable OS images for the RaspberryPi see: http://elinux.org/RPi_Distributions http://elinux.org/RPi_Distributions
cturner 13y ago
I installed it a few months back, and prepared the SD card in linux. Instructions: http://trogrd.tumblr.com/post/38874675677/plan-9-on-rasberry-pi http://trogrd.tumblr.com/post/38874675677/plan-9-on-rasberry...
jjindev 13y ago
I don't see a link to Rob Pike's other contribution, "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant" http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf It's really a very good piece, which I'd summarize as a catch-22. To be important you must be different. To be successful you must be the same. Linux solves that by being the same. (And indeed Apple, acquiring NeXT did as well.)
consonants 13y ago
Is anyone else unable to resolve bell-labs.com? I've tried with my local connection, then SSH'd into my home machine, and tried via 3G on my phone and no luck. Any links to a mirror or what not?
kefka 13y ago
So.. Plan9 looks cool. Everything is distributed, kind of cool. I get that. I've also read this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658247 and other documents about Plan9. So, what is its killer feature that makes ME want to try it out?
- jared314 13y ago
  > So, what is its killer feature that makes ME want to try it out? Transparent distributed multi-user environments and clean unification of files and objects are some of the main goals [0], but, at its core, it is a research OS, and has never evolved to fill a specific niche. Many people, including Alan Kay (I mention it because I recently re-watched a few of his presentations), have spoken out about the need for more open-sky/exploratory research. It might gain popularity if it specialized into a good distributed control-plane, performance-constrained systems, or as a container OS, but it is not any of those things. Try it out for the fun and experience of trying it out. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#Design_concepts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#Design_co...
rbanffy 13y ago
Can anyone please change the link to a press-release, blog post or news item? We killed their poor server.

96 points by synchronise 13y ago

I don't think it's a good choice to link directly to a file like that. Perhaps an article on the release would have been better.

RexRollman 13y ago
Agreed.
leif 13y ago
Especially for us mobile users.

darkarmani 13y ago

That just looks like a tarfile. Anyone could host a tarfile and call it plan9.

synchronise 13y ago
It's hosted at Bell Labs
- darkarmani 13y ago
  I stand corrected. Anyone at Bell labs, could host a tarfile and call it plan9.
RichardMiller 13y ago
Actually it's a compressed image of a bootable SD card containing a full Plan 9 distribution, including all source code for ARM, x86, powerpc and MIPS.

Mithrandir 13y ago

Previous discussion on getting it running: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4855023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4855023 And here's a video of it being demonstrated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZELOUIyvw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ZELOUIyvw

enqk 13y ago
Looking at the video, I think plan9 would have a potential consumer future if it had great typography and fonts.
- enqk 13y ago
  This comment was made in the most positive way possible. Not sure why it was treated as it was non constructive or negative .
Mithrandir 13y ago
The server is still really slow, so I made a mirror: https://ubuntuone.com/5k7x6BwtO1g3i643pyxhnf https://ubuntuone.com/5k7x6BwtO1g3i643pyxhnf (sha256sum: 015e5a8b5b8a438a0c30558708b4d05e610f2ef152174555a9e791596b3dd980)

gbin 13y ago

lol, PAAAH the image !

beshrkayali 13y ago

Now this could become handy: http://code.google.com/p/go-plan9/ http://code.google.com/p/go-plan9/

mortdeus 13y ago
plan9 support is maintained with the main go repo.
- beshrkayali 13y ago
  I didn't know that. Cool!
  - oscargrouch 13y ago
    if we think a little bit, go is also a way to have a plan9 runtime that works as a guest in every os :)
oscargrouch 13y ago
i would love to see just the opposite.. plan9-go a plan9 kernel and tools all coded in go. but go is a first class citizen when you think of something like raspberry.. you can think golang wherever you can think of python
- graue 13y ago
  You can't write a kernel in Go because it has a mandatory runtime system and garbage collection. However, Mozilla's Rust language is similar in some ways, can work runtime-less, and a small demo kernel has been written in it: https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot https://github.com/charliesome/rustboot
  - read_again 13y ago
    > You can't write a kernel in Go because it has a mandatory runtime system and garbage collection. Could you please provide a link or two on that, or give some explanation on why this is not possible?

hardwaresofton 13y ago

For those who might have been curious, one of the folders present when he opened acme was named ピテャゴラスイッチ, it's a japanese children's show: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PythagoraSwitch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PythagoraSwitch I'm not sure why it was there... But just in case you wondered.

ics 13y ago
My eye went straight to it as well but more because I had passively (embarrassingly) assumed that Plan9 didn't have non-western fonts by default. 'twas a silly thought. http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/utf http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/utf
- webreac 13y ago
  At least Plan9 did something wrong. UTF8 is so superior to this silly 16bits encoding.
  - errnoh 13y ago
    Yes, and that's why they (Rob Pike & ken) created UTF-8 and converted Plan9 to use it. see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/utf-8-history.txt
- webreac 13y ago
  At least Plan9 did something wrong. UTF8 is so superior to this silly 16bits encoding.
agumonkey 13y ago
Videos of that show on youtube are quite amusing and relaxing (goldberg machines).

stormbrew 13y ago

Every time something to do with Plan 9 comes up I lament the fact that the most elegant elements of its design have failed to be realized in practical terms in other operating systems. When they are realized, they usually lose the elegance. Mostly I think about union mounts (which are very different in plan9 than the version that's been integrated into Linux) and the privilege escalation system (which has always seemed, to me, to be so much better than the sieve that is setuid). (Note: I'm aware there have been attempts to bring purer versions of these things to linux, but they never gain any traction)

miga 13y ago
Not to forget per-process fs namespace, and text-only replacement of ugly ioctls.
- justincormack 13y ago
  Linux does have per process fs namespaces now... ioctls on the other hand...
  - 4ad 13y ago
    In Linux CLONE_NEWNS requires CAP_SYS_ADMIN which makes it almost completely useless; it can't be used to the extent and in the way it is used in Plan 9.
    - justincormack 13y ago
      I think user namespaces allow that without root. Haven't tried yet though...
    - yrro 13y ago
      I believe once you create a user namespace (https://lwn.net/Articles/528078/ https://lwn.net/Articles/528078/) you can then create the other kinds of namespaces (mount, process, etc.) without requiring privileges outside of your user namespace. LWN ran a great series on namespaces recently: part 5 (https://lwn.net/Articles/532593/ https://lwn.net/Articles/532593/) covers user namespaces.

miga 13y ago

What performance may we expect?

mseepgood 13y ago
Watch the video to get an impression. He compiles the kernel in ~1 minute.

miga 13y ago

What performance may we expect? Is there Linux emulation lib? Or at least package database based on Debian sources?

yuhong 13y ago
I think there is APE for compiling and porting UNIX programs.
jff 13y ago
> What performance may we expect? It'll feel very snappy until you try to actually do a lot of computation, especially I/O. This is the curse of Plan 9. > Is there Linux emulation lib? Not for ARM. > Or at least package database based on Debian sources? This doesn't even make sense.

jacquesm 13y ago

Every time I read about Plan 9 I get a little sad. Unix is so good at what it does that the better enemy of the good doesn't stand a chance. There are lots of better alternatives to Unix out there. But with the incumbents strengths being what they are I think we'll be stuck with Unix for a long time to come. Possibly the only thing that will change this is if it is ever deemed that the Unix model is inherently broken from a security point of view and one of these other alternatives provides a fix. Performance and conceptual models are not enough to ditch decades of investment in technology that is good enough.

RBerenguel 13y ago
I'm getting a new Macbook in a few days (after 5 years with my current machine I desperately need an upgrade) and I'll leave this one for a permanent virtual machine with Plan9 on it. In some sense it will be my "just write, no idle browsing" machine." There's something about Plan9 I find great.
illumen 13y ago
Linux is better. In comparison, Plan 9 is like primordial soup, whereas Linux is an advanced alien life from from the future. There are so many parts of Linux that are far better than Plan 9, and polished for production work loads. Real life solutions are sometimes messy, and take many evolutions to get right. Sure, elegant and simple maths is good. But if the maths is just wrong, and doesn't work, then the more complicated maths that actually works is better.
- synchronise 13y ago
  I would lean towards the opposite. Plan 9 is a creature that was designed well from day one, but initially limited by restrictive licensing. Linux is probably one of the largest hack and slash jobs in programming history, but it was available under very free and liberal terms from the beginning and development was open to everyone, hence it garnered more community support and as a result was more successful.
  - 13y ago

RexRollman 13y ago

I really need to run Plan 9 again. I haven't done so since the late 90's. (I also thought that Oberon was pretty interesting too.) EDIT: With so many former Bell employees there, my personal fantasy is that Google would takes over Plan 9 and starts releasing images of it for Chromebooks. I know its not going to happen but I think that would be sweet.

wmat 13y ago

This has been out for awhile now. For a complete list of bootable OS images for the RaspberryPi see: http://elinux.org/RPi_Distributions http://elinux.org/RPi_Distributions

cturner 13y ago

I installed it a few months back, and prepared the SD card in linux. Instructions: http://trogrd.tumblr.com/post/38874675677/plan-9-on-rasberry-pi http://trogrd.tumblr.com/post/38874675677/plan-9-on-rasberry...

jjindev 13y ago

I don't see a link to Rob Pike's other contribution, "Systems Software Research is Irrelevant" http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf http://herpolhode.com/rob/utah2000.pdf It's really a very good piece, which I'd summarize as a catch-22. To be important you must be different. To be successful you must be the same. Linux solves that by being the same. (And indeed Apple, acquiring NeXT did as well.)

consonants 13y ago

Is anyone else unable to resolve bell-labs.com? I've tried with my local connection, then SSH'd into my home machine, and tried via 3G on my phone and no luck. Any links to a mirror or what not?

kefka 13y ago

So.. Plan9 looks cool. Everything is distributed, kind of cool. I get that. I've also read this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658247 and other documents about Plan9. So, what is its killer feature that makes ME want to try it out?

jared314 13y ago
> So, what is its killer feature that makes ME want to try it out? Transparent distributed multi-user environments and clean unification of files and objects are some of the main goals [0], but, at its core, it is a research OS, and has never evolved to fill a specific niche. Many people, including Alan Kay (I mention it because I recently re-watched a few of his presentations), have spoken out about the need for more open-sky/exploratory research. It might gain popularity if it specialized into a good distributed control-plane, performance-constrained systems, or as a container OS, but it is not any of those things. Try it out for the fun and experience of trying it out. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#Design_concepts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs#Design_co...

rbanffy 13y ago

Can anyone please change the link to a press-release, blog post or news item? We killed their poor server.