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I would counter that the real state secret is that the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted. Fur

by cup 13y ago

I would counter that the real state secret is that the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted. Furthermore, people don't care about privacy and are willing to trade liberty for securiy. We like to talk the talk but when the we get to the crossroads the general public is indifferent.

arethuza 13y ago
I'd forgotten about Duncan Campbell until I saw a reference to him the other day on HN. I ended up watching his 1980s documentary from the Secret Society series "In Time Of Crisis: Government Emergency Powers". The described how the UK goverment prepared legislation that would be rushed through in times of crisis. However, as this is held in a perpetual "draft" status this legislation is never really discussed and would be rushed through in Parliament should an emergency arise. From what leaks suggest this draft legislation allowed for extremely widespread and sweeping powers. Perhaps understandable in the context of the Cold War.... Now what I thought was interesting is that I bet those Cold War era Emergency Powers bills are still sitting there in Whitehall waiting to be passed. However, we still don't discuss them and I can see no good reason why not. The documentary is on Youtube - search for "In Time Of Crisis: Government Emergency Powers" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_%28journalist%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_%28journalist%2...
- teh_klev 13y ago
  Anecdotal: Back in 1987, after BBC Scotland was raided over Campbell's [0] "Communications Zircon" [1] episode of the Secret Society series [2], and it being "banned" from broadcast, I attended a semi-secret viewing of that particular episode organised by Richard Kinsey of Edinburgh University. I vaguely remember Duncan being present at the viewing, but it's such a long time ago my memory may have faded. It was one of the most fascinating nights out I've had ever with the venue being populated not just by students and civil liberties folks, but also by Special Branch who were identified and pointed out by our hosts that evening. After the viewing I asked Mr Kinsey for a copy of the programme and it turned up at my parents house in a jiffy bag under the guise of "Disney: Mickey Mouse" on VHS format, it's in a box somewhere. As a fairly active member of Scottish CND, Scotland out of NATO and various other passive lefty groups of the day I kinda miss the cold war protest game. It's a shame we don't hear more from DC these days, but then that's to be expected now that the BBC's journalistic integrity has been compromised by a knackered London SW1 control centre. [0]: http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/biography http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/biography [1]: http://vimeo.com/44948377 http://vimeo.com/44948377 [2]: http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/secret-society http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/secret-society
ImprovedSilence 13y ago
>> the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted. I couldn't agree more. I think a large part this mindset may be due to the large govt organizations whose many employees and contractors make a living on there being an enemy to defend against. It's the whole “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” thing, taken to an organizational level... it's also possible the spies (and their stories) who really do know whats going on, and are doing the job they are supposed to, are the ones (and the threats) we will never know about... Also, I see spying as just another type of arms race. If we stop, but country xy keeps doing it and has better information, if/when things go downhill, we're up shit creek without a paddle. Weapons can be powerful, but Knowledge is Power, don't ever forget that.
Zigurd 13y ago
> the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted This is the problem at the bottom of the whole thing, Why do we have a Cold War sized NSA, or bigger, when we can look out decades or even centuries and see no totalitarian threat on the scale of the Soviet Union, and today not within three orders of magnitude of the Soviet Union? Nobody is occupying half a continent. No columns of thousands tanks are poised to invade. No multi-megaton hydrogen bombs are aimed at our cities. The only threat this weapon is aimed at is the people.
- learc83 13y ago
  I agree completely with your sentiment, but I'd like to point out that there are still "multi-megaton hydrogen bombs" aimed at our cities.
  - Zigurd 13y ago
    I would check on that. As far as I know, the US no longer stocks any "high yield" nukes, and the same for Russia, or at least a very small fraction of their previous arsenal. Not that a "small" nuke would be any picnic.
    - hga 13y ago
      There's good reasons for that, unless you're trying to hit a particularly hard target, like the Cheyenne Mountain bunker that's now on "warm standby", really large nukes don't gain you anything, you get diminishing returns as additional heat liberated just radiates back into space. Hitting a modern city with 3 low-centi-ton yield airbursts will do a lot more damage than one megaton class one.
- Daniel_Newby 13y ago
  > The only threat this weapon is aimed at is the people. Downloadable 3D-printable isotope separators are coming. We will want to have had extensive surveillance decades before they arrive.
untog 13y ago
the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted. While that's true, I think it is misrepresentative. The Cold War was in some ways safer than the environment we have today. There were two (main) known players, and the threat of mutually assured destruction kept the Cold War from becoming hot. Now we have one known (main) player- the US, and a number of unknowns. You can't threaten mutually assured destruction upon Al Qaeda because it isn't a nation state. So while the threat of global conflict has diminished, the threat of conflict has not. In many ways it has become a lot more complicated.

by cup 13y ago

arethuza 13y ago

I'd forgotten about Duncan Campbell until I saw a reference to him the other day on HN. I ended up watching his 1980s documentary from the Secret Society series "In Time Of Crisis: Government Emergency Powers". The described how the UK goverment prepared legislation that would be rushed through in times of crisis. However, as this is held in a perpetual "draft" status this legislation is never really discussed and would be rushed through in Parliament should an emergency arise. From what leaks suggest this draft legislation allowed for extremely widespread and sweeping powers. Perhaps understandable in the context of the Cold War.... Now what I thought was interesting is that I bet those Cold War era Emergency Powers bills are still sitting there in Whitehall waiting to be passed. However, we still don't discuss them and I can see no good reason why not. The documentary is on Youtube - search for "In Time Of Crisis: Government Emergency Powers" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_%28journalist%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Campbell_%28journalist%2...

teh_klev 13y ago
Anecdotal: Back in 1987, after BBC Scotland was raided over Campbell's [0] "Communications Zircon" [1] episode of the Secret Society series [2], and it being "banned" from broadcast, I attended a semi-secret viewing of that particular episode organised by Richard Kinsey of Edinburgh University. I vaguely remember Duncan being present at the viewing, but it's such a long time ago my memory may have faded. It was one of the most fascinating nights out I've had ever with the venue being populated not just by students and civil liberties folks, but also by Special Branch who were identified and pointed out by our hosts that evening. After the viewing I asked Mr Kinsey for a copy of the programme and it turned up at my parents house in a jiffy bag under the guise of "Disney: Mickey Mouse" on VHS format, it's in a box somewhere. As a fairly active member of Scottish CND, Scotland out of NATO and various other passive lefty groups of the day I kinda miss the cold war protest game. It's a shame we don't hear more from DC these days, but then that's to be expected now that the BBC's journalistic integrity has been compromised by a knackered London SW1 control centre. [0]: http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/biography http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/biography [1]: http://vimeo.com/44948377 http://vimeo.com/44948377 [2]: http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/secret-society http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/secret-society

ImprovedSilence 13y ago

>> the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted. I couldn't agree more. I think a large part this mindset may be due to the large govt organizations whose many employees and contractors make a living on there being an enemy to defend against. It's the whole “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” thing, taken to an organizational level... it's also possible the spies (and their stories) who really do know whats going on, and are doing the job they are supposed to, are the ones (and the threats) we will never know about... Also, I see spying as just another type of arms race. If we stop, but country xy keeps doing it and has better information, if/when things go downhill, we're up shit creek without a paddle. Weapons can be powerful, but Knowledge is Power, don't ever forget that.

Zigurd 13y ago

> the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted This is the problem at the bottom of the whole thing, Why do we have a Cold War sized NSA, or bigger, when we can look out decades or even centuries and see no totalitarian threat on the scale of the Soviet Union, and today not within three orders of magnitude of the Soviet Union? Nobody is occupying half a continent. No columns of thousands tanks are poised to invade. No multi-megaton hydrogen bombs are aimed at our cities. The only threat this weapon is aimed at is the people.

learc83 13y ago
I agree completely with your sentiment, but I'd like to point out that there are still "multi-megaton hydrogen bombs" aimed at our cities.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  I would check on that. As far as I know, the US no longer stocks any "high yield" nukes, and the same for Russia, or at least a very small fraction of their previous arsenal. Not that a "small" nuke would be any picnic.
  - hga 13y ago
    There's good reasons for that, unless you're trying to hit a particularly hard target, like the Cheyenne Mountain bunker that's now on "warm standby", really large nukes don't gain you anything, you get diminishing returns as additional heat liberated just radiates back into space. Hitting a modern city with 3 low-centi-ton yield airbursts will do a lot more damage than one megaton class one.
Daniel_Newby 13y ago
> The only threat this weapon is aimed at is the people. Downloadable 3D-printable isotope separators are coming. We will want to have had extensive surveillance decades before they arrive.

untog 13y ago

the threat of global conflict in this day and age has dimished but the cold war mentality has persisted. While that's true, I think it is misrepresentative. The Cold War was in some ways safer than the environment we have today. There were two (main) known players, and the threat of mutually assured destruction kept the Cold War from becoming hot. Now we have one known (main) player- the US, and a number of unknowns. You can't threaten mutually assured destruction upon Al Qaeda because it isn't a nation state. So while the threat of global conflict has diminished, the threat of conflict has not. In many ways it has become a lot more complicated.