10 ms·

The US government is destroying one of the few bright spots in the American economy with its out of control military. It is unconscionable. And the sad thing is

by guelo 13y ago

The US government is destroying one of the few bright spots in the American economy with its out of control military. It is unconscionable. And the sad thing is it has been enabled by the betrayal by many of the web 2.0 giants, Facebook, Google etc. Google especially is sad to see since they were willing to forgo the Chinese market on principle, but then decided that taking on the authoritarian US government was too lucrative for principle to be involved. If Google had done what Lavabit just did we would be living in a freer country today.

sneak 13y ago
I wrote an article a year or two ago entitled "Don't Be Evil, or comply with the PATRIOT Act?" The companies with the ability to move all operations out of US jurisdiction/coercion who don't do so are complicit in all of this.
- Filligree 13y ago
  Which companies would that be? I can imagine what would happen to Google if, through some dark miracle, their leadership decided to do this. Most of their top engineers live in America. So do the leaders, but ignore them, we've already decided they want this. The employees don't, though: There are eleven thousand people, there, who'll need to be relocated to - where? Europe, probably Ireland, where many of them have never been. Certainly not where they have roots, or where their family is. Google has deep pockets. They can afford to pay massive relocation bonuses, and they'll have to do so. Still, this is eleven thousand people; we're probably talking about a billion plus, just to get a reasonable number of them to follow. After all, most of these engineers would be perfectly capable of finding work at a different company. Okay, so they've done that. They lost a lot of good people; probably a lot of their best people, the ones that care least about money. Still, they're now in Europe. Now what? Most of their infrastructure is still in the US. Compute clusters, god only knows how many. Storage clusters. User data, placed in the US under safe harbor provisions because an attempt at keeping it in Europe is unfeasible given the rather diverse tapestry of privacy laws here. They'll need to move it all to Europe. They'll need to figure out a place to put it, and they'll need to pay billions - quite a few - to rebuild and expand their infrastructure here. By the time this is all done, they'll have new problems. Realistically, they'll go bankrupt somewhere in the middle. And that's not mentioning possible reactions from the US government. It would be great if leaving the US was an option, but it really.. just isn't.
  - reedlaw 13y ago
    The would do far better to spend a billion on lawyers and lobbyists.
    - junto 13y ago
      Would you want to be the one who makes that stand against them? You can be guaranteed that you are from that day onwards a marked man. Everything you do, everywhere you go, and every person you talk to will be monitored. They will look for the tiniest chin in your armour, and once shown they will hang you out to dry. This explains why companies like Google and Yahoo had little choice but to comply. It might also explain why Obama so drastically changed hs beliefs.
      - reedlaw 13y ago
        If Google et al are facing major potential economic loss due to a widespread lack of confidence in the security of their data, they had better come up with a plan to combat that loss.
MrKurtz 13y ago
If you are seriously suggesting that abandoning the US market is a realistic option, especially for a multibillion dollar corporation, then you are (and I'm not using this word lightly) an idiot. Not to mention that there is no US equivalent to the rampant human rights violations and censorship in China.
- pinchyfingers 13y ago
  The US certainly has many more prisoners per capita and in total than China does. Also, the U.S. government is censoring Ladar Levison of Lavabit and others in his situation. I've never been to China to see anything for myself, so I won't make further comparison, but prison state thing definitely bothers me.
  - cmccabe 13y ago
    I've never been to China to see anything for myself... Yep, I can tell. I can tell you haven't read about it either.
    - LinXitoW 13y ago
      Numbers, facts, anything. Please substantiate your comment, instead of adding nothing but snark to the discussion. Here, i'll start: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23pri...
- quasque 13y ago
  There are plenty of human rights violations that the US commits as a matter of policy, due to its "War on Terror" - drone strikes and Guantanamo Bay are two major ones.
- cenhyperion 13y ago
  >Not to mention that there is no US equivalent to the rampant human rights violations and censorship in China. So that makes it okay for them to systematically spy on their own citizens and violate their own constitution? Saying "this country is worse" doesn't make it okay in the US. Bad logic.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
greendata 13y ago
Agreed, these US Gov contractors and agencies systematically destroying our industry and our prospects. As a community, let's shun and shame all those who continue work for those agencies (NSA/CIA/FBI/DIA/DEA) both directly and as contractors from this date forward. If you didn't quite in August 2013, we don't want to hire you. If you quite now in disgust, we should view that in a positive light. If you or your company stand up to the US Gov, that should view that in a VERY positive light and we should be looking to hire them. Let's shun and shame FB, Google, et all as collaborators. Let's make it a point to avoid google app engine and other Google services.
- jaekwon 13y ago
  Should I still use Golang? Would making crypto-software in Golang make it less secure? Would the irony be worth it? Is it a worthy language?
  - reedlaw 13y ago
    Go is open source so anyone is free to inspect it for backdoors. I would be very surprised if Google, on behalf of the NSA, tried to sneak anything in like that. It would also be fairly obvious if it used the underlying OS's networking to send info back.
  - greendata 13y ago
    Obviously you're being somewhat facetious. If you're good/confident enough to write your own crypto, go seems fine as it's open source so you can inspect it. I don't trust myself to write my own crypt for important things, so obviously I would not use Golang for that and I would pause before using the Golang crypto module, but that's probably a bit paranoid. In general, I would probably use Golang on projects. I use Angular.s and Python and those have been funded in ways by Google. Things like Google App Engine/Data store are an issue b/c your backend is Google's backend...fundamentally the same issue Gmail faces. If the NSA/FBI/DEA/TSA mistakenly fingers one of my customers as a drug dealer or "terrorist" or thinks they are associated with a drug dealer/whistleblower/"terrorist", google will hand over all my apps data.
iamjustin 13y ago
The actions of Lavabit actually caused me to cancel my account with Google Play All Access today (proof: http://i.imgur.com/KbmaBnS.png http://i.imgur.com/KbmaBnS.png, if anyone cares), that I've had since day one. It's not that I didn't know that Google was ok with the spying before, but seeing the difference between the reaction of Lavabit, to the non-reaction from Google -- well THAT gave me the final push to stop doing business with the company. I really like Google's products. I really like All Access, but I don't think I'll be supporting the company financially anymore. It probably won't matter much, but it's still something.
- MisterWebz 13y ago
  It's exactly this kind of sacrifice more people need to make if they want to see some real change.
- MrKurtz 13y ago
  Lavabit was a tiny private operation. If you think that a publicly traded multi billion dollar company with millions of users and customers can just shut down to avoid complying with government requests then you are a deluded moron.
  - iamjustin 13y ago
    I never suggested that it was feasible for Google to shut down, but that doesn't mean that I have to just accept what they are complicit in. I no longer choose to do business with them. That hardly makes me a deluded moron.
    - MrKurtz 13y ago
      The burden isn't on Google (I'm not sure why you are singling out Google) their hands are tied from a legal and practical standpoints. They receive warrants and subpoenas with which they have to comply to keep doing business, if you don't care for that blame the politician and the legal system, focusing on Google is not only missing the point, it's unfair

by guelo 13y ago

sneak 13y ago

I wrote an article a year or two ago entitled "Don't Be Evil, or comply with the PATRIOT Act?" The companies with the ability to move all operations out of US jurisdiction/coercion who don't do so are complicit in all of this.

Filligree 13y ago
Which companies would that be? I can imagine what would happen to Google if, through some dark miracle, their leadership decided to do this. Most of their top engineers live in America. So do the leaders, but ignore them, we've already decided they want this. The employees don't, though: There are eleven thousand people, there, who'll need to be relocated to - where? Europe, probably Ireland, where many of them have never been. Certainly not where they have roots, or where their family is. Google has deep pockets. They can afford to pay massive relocation bonuses, and they'll have to do so. Still, this is eleven thousand people; we're probably talking about a billion plus, just to get a reasonable number of them to follow. After all, most of these engineers would be perfectly capable of finding work at a different company. Okay, so they've done that. They lost a lot of good people; probably a lot of their best people, the ones that care least about money. Still, they're now in Europe. Now what? Most of their infrastructure is still in the US. Compute clusters, god only knows how many. Storage clusters. User data, placed in the US under safe harbor provisions because an attempt at keeping it in Europe is unfeasible given the rather diverse tapestry of privacy laws here. They'll need to move it all to Europe. They'll need to figure out a place to put it, and they'll need to pay billions - quite a few - to rebuild and expand their infrastructure here. By the time this is all done, they'll have new problems. Realistically, they'll go bankrupt somewhere in the middle. And that's not mentioning possible reactions from the US government. It would be great if leaving the US was an option, but it really.. just isn't.
- reedlaw 13y ago
  The would do far better to spend a billion on lawyers and lobbyists.
  - junto 13y ago
    Would you want to be the one who makes that stand against them? You can be guaranteed that you are from that day onwards a marked man. Everything you do, everywhere you go, and every person you talk to will be monitored. They will look for the tiniest chin in your armour, and once shown they will hang you out to dry. This explains why companies like Google and Yahoo had little choice but to comply. It might also explain why Obama so drastically changed hs beliefs.
    - reedlaw 13y ago
      If Google et al are facing major potential economic loss due to a widespread lack of confidence in the security of their data, they had better come up with a plan to combat that loss.

MrKurtz 13y ago

If you are seriously suggesting that abandoning the US market is a realistic option, especially for a multibillion dollar corporation, then you are (and I'm not using this word lightly) an idiot. Not to mention that there is no US equivalent to the rampant human rights violations and censorship in China.

pinchyfingers 13y ago
The US certainly has many more prisoners per capita and in total than China does. Also, the U.S. government is censoring Ladar Levison of Lavabit and others in his situation. I've never been to China to see anything for myself, so I won't make further comparison, but prison state thing definitely bothers me.
- cmccabe 13y ago
  I've never been to China to see anything for myself... Yep, I can tell. I can tell you haven't read about it either.
  - LinXitoW 13y ago
    Numbers, facts, anything. Please substantiate your comment, instead of adding nothing but snark to the discussion. Here, i'll start: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23prison.12253738.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/world/americas/23iht-23pri...
quasque 13y ago
There are plenty of human rights violations that the US commits as a matter of policy, due to its "War on Terror" - drone strikes and Guantanamo Bay are two major ones.
cenhyperion 13y ago
>Not to mention that there is no US equivalent to the rampant human rights violations and censorship in China. So that makes it okay for them to systematically spy on their own citizens and violate their own constitution? Saying "this country is worse" doesn't make it okay in the US. Bad logic.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

greendata 13y ago

Agreed, these US Gov contractors and agencies systematically destroying our industry and our prospects. As a community, let's shun and shame all those who continue work for those agencies (NSA/CIA/FBI/DIA/DEA) both directly and as contractors from this date forward. If you didn't quite in August 2013, we don't want to hire you. If you quite now in disgust, we should view that in a positive light. If you or your company stand up to the US Gov, that should view that in a VERY positive light and we should be looking to hire them. Let's shun and shame FB, Google, et all as collaborators. Let's make it a point to avoid google app engine and other Google services.

jaekwon 13y ago
Should I still use Golang? Would making crypto-software in Golang make it less secure? Would the irony be worth it? Is it a worthy language?
- reedlaw 13y ago
  Go is open source so anyone is free to inspect it for backdoors. I would be very surprised if Google, on behalf of the NSA, tried to sneak anything in like that. It would also be fairly obvious if it used the underlying OS's networking to send info back.
- greendata 13y ago
  Obviously you're being somewhat facetious. If you're good/confident enough to write your own crypto, go seems fine as it's open source so you can inspect it. I don't trust myself to write my own crypt for important things, so obviously I would not use Golang for that and I would pause before using the Golang crypto module, but that's probably a bit paranoid. In general, I would probably use Golang on projects. I use Angular.s and Python and those have been funded in ways by Google. Things like Google App Engine/Data store are an issue b/c your backend is Google's backend...fundamentally the same issue Gmail faces. If the NSA/FBI/DEA/TSA mistakenly fingers one of my customers as a drug dealer or "terrorist" or thinks they are associated with a drug dealer/whistleblower/"terrorist", google will hand over all my apps data.

iamjustin 13y ago

The actions of Lavabit actually caused me to cancel my account with Google Play All Access today (proof: http://i.imgur.com/KbmaBnS.png http://i.imgur.com/KbmaBnS.png, if anyone cares), that I've had since day one. It's not that I didn't know that Google was ok with the spying before, but seeing the difference between the reaction of Lavabit, to the non-reaction from Google -- well THAT gave me the final push to stop doing business with the company. I really like Google's products. I really like All Access, but I don't think I'll be supporting the company financially anymore. It probably won't matter much, but it's still something.

MisterWebz 13y ago
It's exactly this kind of sacrifice more people need to make if they want to see some real change.
MrKurtz 13y ago
Lavabit was a tiny private operation. If you think that a publicly traded multi billion dollar company with millions of users and customers can just shut down to avoid complying with government requests then you are a deluded moron.
- iamjustin 13y ago
  I never suggested that it was feasible for Google to shut down, but that doesn't mean that I have to just accept what they are complicit in. I no longer choose to do business with them. That hardly makes me a deluded moron.
  - MrKurtz 13y ago
    The burden isn't on Google (I'm not sure why you are singling out Google) their hands are tied from a legal and practical standpoints. They receive warrants and subpoenas with which they have to comply to keep doing business, if you don't care for that blame the politician and the legal system, focusing on Google is not only missing the point, it's unfair