13 ms·

Stop Allowing App Reviews From Beta iOS Versions

188 points by vlbeta 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  >> "They could respond that it's another incentive to make developer update their apps..." But it's a beta, we can't update our apps. Apple won't accept iOS 7 apps until the GM is announced usually a week or two before the official launch.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - nnnnni 13y ago
      That screws over developers who are aiming for iOS 6 as the target for the new release. What if there's a major bug in a program? Are they not supposed to release a bugfix update just because iOS is currently in a beta program?! THAT would unfairly cause a lot of bad reviews for a program.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - caryhartline 13y ago
        Aiming for iOS 6? 92% of developers are planning to release their apps for iOS 7 as soon as it comes out and about half of them are planning to drop support for iOS 6. This isn't Android where legacy applications need to be supported for several years just because many of the phones phones won't update.
- dpearson 13y ago
  It would be one thing if the iOS 7 reviews only showed up for other developers running the beta, but these reviews only (in the best case scenario) dilute and obscure actual, legitimate reviews. In the former case, the reviews might provide a benefit. Now, however, they hurt sales to customers who haven't updated and won't until after Apple's deadline for compatability (that is, release day). EDIT: Not to mention that the new APIs are still changing, so even if a fix was allowable, it might just end up breaking again.
- nnnnni 13y ago
  > They could respond that it's another incentive to make developer update their apps… Okay, they'll submit a new version every week or so after Apple releases a new beta and hope that it gets through the approval process before the next beta is released. It'll do NOTHING for crashing bugs in iOS that just happen to manifest in programs. There was a volume-up crash in Spotify that (as I understand) was a bug in iOS, not Spotify. You had a great post at the beginning and then "went full retard", as reddit would say.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    ..."went full retard", as reddit would say. I think you could just omit the 1st 3 words above. There would be less offense offered to the mentally disabled and it would be less redundant.
grecy 13y ago
When a customer submits an app review from a beta iOS, that review should just be emailed directly to the developer, and not show up on any of the "official" review lists that other customers can see. That way the developer is getting feedback about potential problems with the upcoming iOS, and can fix them, but it doesn't hurt their image for the 99.9% of customers running the non-beta iOS.
- OvidNaso 13y ago
  Reviews are not solely for the developer. In fact, they are there mainly for the users. They absolutely should be there for a public beta to let other users know the status of the application. What should change is the silly star rating system and they should not be calculated or even used in the review. There is way too much dependence on a 'good score' for the developer and hiding beneficial information is not a solution.
  - myko 13y ago
    > In fact, they are there mainly for the users. They absolutely should be there for a public beta to let other users know the status of the application. I'm more likely to agree with this if you mean only other users of the beta OS should be able to see the review. It doesn't do the general user any good to see a beta review, positive or negative, when they aren't even using the beta OS.
  - clarky07 13y ago
    It is not a public beta in any way shape or form. The only way to get the beta is to be a developer paying $99 a year to Apple. The "users" do not have iOS 7 and therefore bad reviews based on an unreleased BETA OS should not be allowed. Most of these issues aren't even something wrong with the apps. They will get fixed when the OS stops being buggy.
    - diminish 13y ago
      out of curiosity, does apple read stuart's blog or HN? there must be a better way to signal this to ios7 program management when you are signed up for beta...do they have a dev feedback option, which many devs would request the same wish...
xutopia 13y ago
Why would Apple spend the energy to fix this? They'll be happy to see developers update their apps to work with iOS7 and the sooner the better. /edit In no means am I saying that it is a good idea. I'm just saying that Apple's desires are not aligned with those of well-meaning developers here.
- mahyarm 13y ago
  Because stupid apple library beta only bugs cause these crashes. Apple also seems to put some sort of energy of these releases being 'confidential' for 'authorized developers only' and so on.
- brk 13y ago
  Most likely many developers ARE in the process of updating their apps already. But they shouldn't be penalized with bad reviews for an app running on an OS release that is not considered supported yet. Also, it's hard for people to know if issues are related to the app itself, or underlying problems in the beta iOS release. But any negative review is going to be associated with the app, not the OS.
- oleganza 13y ago
  Variant: only show reviews for the same platform, the user wrote review from. E.g. iOS7 users will see their reviews, but iOS6 users will see theirs. And developers will still be penalized if they don't fix problems by the time of iOS7 release, because reviews now will be visible for many more users. So it still incentivizes devs to be quick, but does not pollute reviews with irrelevant for iOS6 users bug reports.
  - clarky07 13y ago
    That's still BS. most of the bugs are caused by the OS being beta and not the app itself. Once the new version does get released the dev gets screwed because of something he had no control over.
    - oleganza 13y ago
vlbeta 13y ago
The real problem lays in the default trained behavior of the user - leave a review if _anything_. Both app developers and Apple have wrongly been pushing users to voice opinions publicly in app reviews, leaving app developers exposed with no way to communicate with those users. The solution is to start pushing users to communicate their suggestions and issues privately, in the app, where you can better manage conversations, keep users engaged, and build relationships that can turn upset users into long-term evangelists.
RKearney 13y ago
What people seem to forget is parts of iOS 7 are still under NDA, yet people race to post videos and full-length articles of how "the new beta has 10 more pixels on this icon!" That, plus the fact that there are websites that sell UUID registrations so non-develoeprs can use the betas are the reason this happens. So, instead of blocking iOS betas from submitting reviews, how about everyone as a whole stops breaking the NDA?
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  There is no chance that that will happen.
- itafroma 13y ago
  To be fair, the license agreement to which Apple developers agree has the following clause (line breaks added by me): > Notwithstanding the foregoing, Apple Confidential Information will not include: > (i) information that is generally and legitimately available to the public through no fault or breach of Yours, > (ii) information that is generally made available to the public by Apple, > (iii) information that is independently developed by You without the use of any Apple Confidential Information, > (iv) information that was rightfully obtained from a third party who had the right to transfer or disclose it to You without limitation, or > (v) any FOSS included in the Apple Software and accompanied by licensing terms that do not impose confidentiality obligations on the use or disclosure of such FOSS. Because of (i), there are very few things that remain confidential for too long due to Apple fan/rumor sites breathlessly reporting every change in the DPs under the notion that it's in the public interest to know. I'm not a lawyer and this shouldn't be construed as legal advice, but a plain reading of (iii) seems like it might indicate DP-related bugs in 3rd party apps would not be considered confidential either.
  - rlanday 13y ago
    “information that is independently developed by You without the use of any Apple Confidential Information” I imagine there has to be some provision for being allowed to tell other developers about bugs in their apps (does it have to be on Apple’s official forums?), but I think Apple makes developers agree to NDAs exactly to keep dumbass CS students from trying to impress their friends by telling them how many bugs they’ve found and how crappy the prerelease builds are. I’ve never had a paid developer account, but my impression is that people used to take the NDA a lot more seriously several years ago; I’m not sure if it’s because Apple dropped the price from $500 to $99 or because I spend a lot more time around CS students, or maybe because so many more people have iPhones now, but it seems like even a lot of non-developers are finding it worth $99 a year to get prerelease iOS builds, and everyone is wildly violating the NDA.
ianlevesque 13y ago
I suspect the reason this hasn't been corrected is because ideally only developers have beta iOS versions and are intelligent enough not to do this. Unfortunately pretending only developers have beta releases at this point is ridiculous.
- Moto7451 13y ago
  I disagree in the case iOS 7 betas. iOS 6 betas spoiled us because they were so solid. iOS 7 betas 1 and 2 were basically garbage as a general release. One of our devs had to figure out how to dial into AT&T to get his voicemail until Beta 3. Apple's betas are not "Google betas" where they're pretty solid at release and keep the beta monicker until we've learned to ignore it. This round of Betas have definitely been early releases so developers can get a grasp on APIs and UI changes and nothing more.
  - ianlevesque 13y ago
    I think you misunderstand, I do not think any end-users should be running beta iOS releases. It is just obvious from this problem that many are, and Apple needs to deal with the problem.
jcampbell1 13y ago
Can someone comment on what is going to happen when iOS 7 is released? The upgrade from 5->6 didn't break any apps by default. It appears 7 resizes all the stock controls, and this breaks tons of apps by default. Will an existing iOS6 app work unchanged in iOS 7, or will it have to be fixed.
- clarky07 13y ago
  Any details here are likely under NDA. I'd expect most apps to work just fine though as they have worked fine during the other upgrades.
- myko 13y ago
  > The upgrade from 5->6 didn't break any apps by default. Didn't rotation API changes make certain apps not work right, particularly on the iPad?
- escoz 13y ago
  IOS7 only resizes controls built with the new iOS7 SDK. Apps build with the iOS6 sdk continue to look and work just line normal, and my guess is a lot of the crashes people are seeing are regression bugs for Apple. The latest Beta 5 fixed a ton of crashes on some apps I've been using.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  Without going into too many details, iOS6 apps should continue working, as anything built with the iOS6 SDK will be operating in some kind of back-compat mode. That being said, some of the back-compat modes don't really work due to large changes in the underlying codebase.
  - micampe 13y ago
    > That being said, some of the back-compat modes don't really work due to large changes in the underlying codebase. Which ones?
- Tehnix 13y ago
  I doubt it's under the NDA to say that most apps (that I use) work fine under iOS 7 (and these are iOS 6 apps). Of course there are some that crash/break, but overall, it's okay. In short, the app situation feels more or less just as 5->6 beta did.
escoz 13y ago
IMHO Apple should allow these reviews to go thru, and then simply hide/delete them on the server side. They're testing iOS as well, and I would bet that they're tracking crashes and bugs on the AppStore app and review process.
rogerchucker 13y ago
The root of this problem, I think, is that Apple requires the $100 membership fee (and thus provide a developer account) even for testing apps on one's own device. If Apple, instead required this fee (and gave developer accounts) only when somebody has submitted an app for publishing on the App store for the first time, then there would be a legitimate filter against people who like to download betas just for experimenting or are plain nincompoops pretending to be tech bloggers. As an added benefit, by doing this, Apple would also invite a LOT more developers into its fold who would like to experiment with apps on their own device without committing to publishing any.
- escoz 13y ago
  If iOS7 serves as an example, this would be a terrible idea. Betas 1/2 were nowhere near acceptable for day-to-day usage, and while the new betas are better, I still get app crashes and even phone restarts every once in a while. Letting everybody use the beta from the very beginning would be the far worse thing they could do: all of a sudden, with no notice, every developer out there would be forced to fix crashes asap to avoid millions of people complaining about it. And it would pretty quickly cause people to hate apple's phones, because they "crash all the time."
  - krichman 13y ago
    The GP wants to limit the betas to what I will refer to as actual developers, measured by those who have submitted an app, so you both want it to be more restricted than it is.
stcredzero 13y ago
Is it just me, or do people who review apps on the iTunes App Store basically have no accountability? (With the resulting ethical failings that often accompany that.)
- escoz 13y ago
  Developers (and I think everybody) can ask reviews to be removed, and in general I had that done a few times. But, yes, no accountability.
cenhyperion 13y ago
This is what happens when non-developers start using developmental OS's because they can't wait for the official release. Most people using the iOS 7 beta seem to have nothing to do with development. It's why immediately after WWDC the internet was filled with complaints about various tiny aspects of it and why things like this happen. I wouldn't be upset if Apple limited early access not only to people enrolled as developers but people with a published application.
pudquick 13y ago
As I stated before on a different article submitted today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6178515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6178515 > I really wish the title of the article was more along the lines "Apple should prevent negative app reviews when using iOS beta". > I felt a little mislead and thought that a developer had somehow figured out how to do the current title of the submission (news) vs. what it was really about (opinion, that I agree with, but not news). Sad to see this happen twice today. Only happy about it in the sense that maybe it will get some traction if enough people complain. This title isn't as bad as the other one was (which eventually got changed, thankfully), but still - depending on how you read it you might misconstrue that this article teaches you how to stop this. The worst part of it all is that I thought to myself "Title-bait like that couldn't possibly have happened again - maybe someone really did find out a solution!" and I fell for it. Fool me once, etc. It would be better if it was prefixed with "Hey Apple, "
robmcm 13y ago
Or just split reviews and only show reviews to users of that OS. Like they do with versions of the app.

188 points by vlbeta 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

k-mcgrady 13y ago
>> "They could respond that it's another incentive to make developer update their apps..." But it's a beta, we can't update our apps. Apple won't accept iOS 7 apps until the GM is announced usually a week or two before the official launch.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - nnnnni 13y ago
    That screws over developers who are aiming for iOS 6 as the target for the new release. What if there's a major bug in a program? Are they not supposed to release a bugfix update just because iOS is currently in a beta program?! THAT would unfairly cause a lot of bad reviews for a program.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - caryhartline 13y ago
      Aiming for iOS 6? 92% of developers are planning to release their apps for iOS 7 as soon as it comes out and about half of them are planning to drop support for iOS 6. This isn't Android where legacy applications need to be supported for several years just because many of the phones phones won't update.
dpearson 13y ago
It would be one thing if the iOS 7 reviews only showed up for other developers running the beta, but these reviews only (in the best case scenario) dilute and obscure actual, legitimate reviews. In the former case, the reviews might provide a benefit. Now, however, they hurt sales to customers who haven't updated and won't until after Apple's deadline for compatability (that is, release day). EDIT: Not to mention that the new APIs are still changing, so even if a fix was allowable, it might just end up breaking again.
nnnnni 13y ago
> They could respond that it's another incentive to make developer update their apps… Okay, they'll submit a new version every week or so after Apple releases a new beta and hope that it gets through the approval process before the next beta is released. It'll do NOTHING for crashing bugs in iOS that just happen to manifest in programs. There was a volume-up crash in Spotify that (as I understand) was a bug in iOS, not Spotify. You had a great post at the beginning and then "went full retard", as reddit would say.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- stcredzero 13y ago
  ..."went full retard", as reddit would say. I think you could just omit the 1st 3 words above. There would be less offense offered to the mentally disabled and it would be less redundant.

grecy 13y ago

When a customer submits an app review from a beta iOS, that review should just be emailed directly to the developer, and not show up on any of the "official" review lists that other customers can see. That way the developer is getting feedback about potential problems with the upcoming iOS, and can fix them, but it doesn't hurt their image for the 99.9% of customers running the non-beta iOS.

OvidNaso 13y ago
Reviews are not solely for the developer. In fact, they are there mainly for the users. They absolutely should be there for a public beta to let other users know the status of the application. What should change is the silly star rating system and they should not be calculated or even used in the review. There is way too much dependence on a 'good score' for the developer and hiding beneficial information is not a solution.
- myko 13y ago
  > In fact, they are there mainly for the users. They absolutely should be there for a public beta to let other users know the status of the application. I'm more likely to agree with this if you mean only other users of the beta OS should be able to see the review. It doesn't do the general user any good to see a beta review, positive or negative, when they aren't even using the beta OS.
- clarky07 13y ago
  It is not a public beta in any way shape or form. The only way to get the beta is to be a developer paying $99 a year to Apple. The "users" do not have iOS 7 and therefore bad reviews based on an unreleased BETA OS should not be allowed. Most of these issues aren't even something wrong with the apps. They will get fixed when the OS stops being buggy.
  - diminish 13y ago
    out of curiosity, does apple read stuart's blog or HN? there must be a better way to signal this to ios7 program management when you are signed up for beta...do they have a dev feedback option, which many devs would request the same wish...

xutopia 13y ago

Why would Apple spend the energy to fix this? They'll be happy to see developers update their apps to work with iOS7 and the sooner the better. /edit In no means am I saying that it is a good idea. I'm just saying that Apple's desires are not aligned with those of well-meaning developers here.

mahyarm 13y ago
Because stupid apple library beta only bugs cause these crashes. Apple also seems to put some sort of energy of these releases being 'confidential' for 'authorized developers only' and so on.
brk 13y ago
Most likely many developers ARE in the process of updating their apps already. But they shouldn't be penalized with bad reviews for an app running on an OS release that is not considered supported yet. Also, it's hard for people to know if issues are related to the app itself, or underlying problems in the beta iOS release. But any negative review is going to be associated with the app, not the OS.
oleganza 13y ago
Variant: only show reviews for the same platform, the user wrote review from. E.g. iOS7 users will see their reviews, but iOS6 users will see theirs. And developers will still be penalized if they don't fix problems by the time of iOS7 release, because reviews now will be visible for many more users. So it still incentivizes devs to be quick, but does not pollute reviews with irrelevant for iOS6 users bug reports.
- clarky07 13y ago
  That's still BS. most of the bugs are caused by the OS being beta and not the app itself. Once the new version does get released the dev gets screwed because of something he had no control over.
  - oleganza 13y ago

vlbeta 13y ago

The real problem lays in the default trained behavior of the user - leave a review if _anything_. Both app developers and Apple have wrongly been pushing users to voice opinions publicly in app reviews, leaving app developers exposed with no way to communicate with those users. The solution is to start pushing users to communicate their suggestions and issues privately, in the app, where you can better manage conversations, keep users engaged, and build relationships that can turn upset users into long-term evangelists.

RKearney 13y ago

What people seem to forget is parts of iOS 7 are still under NDA, yet people race to post videos and full-length articles of how "the new beta has 10 more pixels on this icon!" That, plus the fact that there are websites that sell UUID registrations so non-develoeprs can use the betas are the reason this happens. So, instead of blocking iOS betas from submitting reviews, how about everyone as a whole stops breaking the NDA?

jamesaguilar 13y ago
There is no chance that that will happen.
itafroma 13y ago
To be fair, the license agreement to which Apple developers agree has the following clause (line breaks added by me): > Notwithstanding the foregoing, Apple Confidential Information will not include: > (i) information that is generally and legitimately available to the public through no fault or breach of Yours, > (ii) information that is generally made available to the public by Apple, > (iii) information that is independently developed by You without the use of any Apple Confidential Information, > (iv) information that was rightfully obtained from a third party who had the right to transfer or disclose it to You without limitation, or > (v) any FOSS included in the Apple Software and accompanied by licensing terms that do not impose confidentiality obligations on the use or disclosure of such FOSS. Because of (i), there are very few things that remain confidential for too long due to Apple fan/rumor sites breathlessly reporting every change in the DPs under the notion that it's in the public interest to know. I'm not a lawyer and this shouldn't be construed as legal advice, but a plain reading of (iii) seems like it might indicate DP-related bugs in 3rd party apps would not be considered confidential either.
- rlanday 13y ago
  “information that is independently developed by You without the use of any Apple Confidential Information” I imagine there has to be some provision for being allowed to tell other developers about bugs in their apps (does it have to be on Apple’s official forums?), but I think Apple makes developers agree to NDAs exactly to keep dumbass CS students from trying to impress their friends by telling them how many bugs they’ve found and how crappy the prerelease builds are. I’ve never had a paid developer account, but my impression is that people used to take the NDA a lot more seriously several years ago; I’m not sure if it’s because Apple dropped the price from $500 to $99 or because I spend a lot more time around CS students, or maybe because so many more people have iPhones now, but it seems like even a lot of non-developers are finding it worth $99 a year to get prerelease iOS builds, and everyone is wildly violating the NDA.

ianlevesque 13y ago

I suspect the reason this hasn't been corrected is because ideally only developers have beta iOS versions and are intelligent enough not to do this. Unfortunately pretending only developers have beta releases at this point is ridiculous.

Moto7451 13y ago
I disagree in the case iOS 7 betas. iOS 6 betas spoiled us because they were so solid. iOS 7 betas 1 and 2 were basically garbage as a general release. One of our devs had to figure out how to dial into AT&T to get his voicemail until Beta 3. Apple's betas are not "Google betas" where they're pretty solid at release and keep the beta monicker until we've learned to ignore it. This round of Betas have definitely been early releases so developers can get a grasp on APIs and UI changes and nothing more.
- ianlevesque 13y ago
  I think you misunderstand, I do not think any end-users should be running beta iOS releases. It is just obvious from this problem that many are, and Apple needs to deal with the problem.

jcampbell1 13y ago

Can someone comment on what is going to happen when iOS 7 is released? The upgrade from 5->6 didn't break any apps by default. It appears 7 resizes all the stock controls, and this breaks tons of apps by default. Will an existing iOS6 app work unchanged in iOS 7, or will it have to be fixed.

clarky07 13y ago
Any details here are likely under NDA. I'd expect most apps to work just fine though as they have worked fine during the other upgrades.
myko 13y ago
> The upgrade from 5->6 didn't break any apps by default. Didn't rotation API changes make certain apps not work right, particularly on the iPad?
escoz 13y ago
IOS7 only resizes controls built with the new iOS7 SDK. Apps build with the iOS6 sdk continue to look and work just line normal, and my guess is a lot of the crashes people are seeing are regression bugs for Apple. The latest Beta 5 fixed a ton of crashes on some apps I've been using.
potatolicious 13y ago
Without going into too many details, iOS6 apps should continue working, as anything built with the iOS6 SDK will be operating in some kind of back-compat mode. That being said, some of the back-compat modes don't really work due to large changes in the underlying codebase.
- micampe 13y ago
  > That being said, some of the back-compat modes don't really work due to large changes in the underlying codebase. Which ones?
Tehnix 13y ago
I doubt it's under the NDA to say that most apps (that I use) work fine under iOS 7 (and these are iOS 6 apps). Of course there are some that crash/break, but overall, it's okay. In short, the app situation feels more or less just as 5->6 beta did.

escoz 13y ago

IMHO Apple should allow these reviews to go thru, and then simply hide/delete them on the server side. They're testing iOS as well, and I would bet that they're tracking crashes and bugs on the AppStore app and review process.

rogerchucker 13y ago

The root of this problem, I think, is that Apple requires the $100 membership fee (and thus provide a developer account) even for testing apps on one's own device. If Apple, instead required this fee (and gave developer accounts) only when somebody has submitted an app for publishing on the App store for the first time, then there would be a legitimate filter against people who like to download betas just for experimenting or are plain nincompoops pretending to be tech bloggers. As an added benefit, by doing this, Apple would also invite a LOT more developers into its fold who would like to experiment with apps on their own device without committing to publishing any.

escoz 13y ago
If iOS7 serves as an example, this would be a terrible idea. Betas 1/2 were nowhere near acceptable for day-to-day usage, and while the new betas are better, I still get app crashes and even phone restarts every once in a while. Letting everybody use the beta from the very beginning would be the far worse thing they could do: all of a sudden, with no notice, every developer out there would be forced to fix crashes asap to avoid millions of people complaining about it. And it would pretty quickly cause people to hate apple's phones, because they "crash all the time."
- krichman 13y ago
  The GP wants to limit the betas to what I will refer to as actual developers, measured by those who have submitted an app, so you both want it to be more restricted than it is.

stcredzero 13y ago

Is it just me, or do people who review apps on the iTunes App Store basically have no accountability? (With the resulting ethical failings that often accompany that.)

escoz 13y ago
Developers (and I think everybody) can ask reviews to be removed, and in general I had that done a few times. But, yes, no accountability.

cenhyperion 13y ago

This is what happens when non-developers start using developmental OS's because they can't wait for the official release. Most people using the iOS 7 beta seem to have nothing to do with development. It's why immediately after WWDC the internet was filled with complaints about various tiny aspects of it and why things like this happen. I wouldn't be upset if Apple limited early access not only to people enrolled as developers but people with a published application.

pudquick 13y ago

As I stated before on a different article submitted today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6178515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6178515 > I really wish the title of the article was more along the lines "Apple should prevent negative app reviews when using iOS beta". > I felt a little mislead and thought that a developer had somehow figured out how to do the current title of the submission (news) vs. what it was really about (opinion, that I agree with, but not news). Sad to see this happen twice today. Only happy about it in the sense that maybe it will get some traction if enough people complain. This title isn't as bad as the other one was (which eventually got changed, thankfully), but still - depending on how you read it you might misconstrue that this article teaches you how to stop this. The worst part of it all is that I thought to myself "Title-bait like that couldn't possibly have happened again - maybe someone really did find out a solution!" and I fell for it. Fool me once, etc. It would be better if it was prefixed with "Hey Apple, "

robmcm 13y ago

Or just split reviews and only show reviews to users of that OS. Like they do with versions of the app.