7 ms·

If you're in a similar position and this resonates with you, do yourself a favor and just quit. Seriously. Stop waiting for things to get interesting. They w

If you're in a similar position and this resonates with you, do yourself a favor and just quit. Seriously. Stop waiting for things to get interesting. They won't. It's so easy to get stuck. If you're good at what you do, you'll find a job you love immediately (if that's what you're looking for). As developers, we're fortunate to be in extremely high demand. Life is too short to be bored. Work on interesting things.

coherentpony 13y ago
This doesn't make any sense to me. Why would you quit without another job lined up? You must have a ton of money already saved to cover the rent and feed the children. Or live with your parents. I couldn't just quit my job without having other work lined up.
- mcv 13y ago
  > Why would you quit without another job lined up? You must have a ton of money already saved to cover the rent and feed the children. If you've got children, you hopefully also have a spouse with his/her own income. I'm fortunate that my wife makes enough to pay the entire mortgage on just her income, so my money goes mostly to child care and various extras and luxuries. With a bit of savings we can make it for quite a while. If you're maintaining a family on a single income, then yeah, that kind of step is rather irresponsible. But if you live on your own, you'll have your hands free for anything.
- cstejerean 13y ago
  That's not a great position to be in. The company you work for can let you go at any moment whether or not you have something lined up, and if that's not something you can tolerate then you might want to start working on it (either by increasing your saving or by reducing the out of time it would take you to find another job).
  - coherentpony 13y ago
    That's the case with any job, though. There's no such thing as a 'job for life' now. No matter how much one 'works on it', job security is a myth in industry in the 21st century. When someone says 'job security', the profession I immediately jump to is a tenured professorship. And those don't exactly come by frequently.
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      "Supreme Court Justice" is up there too.
    - cgag 13y ago
      Yes, that's why everyone should have at least a few months of saftey net.
- guynamedloren 13y ago
  My parents live across the country, and I have no children. I don't have a ton of money, but I have some. I have enough to survive for several months (or longer, if needed). LA is expensive, but I'm relatively frugal.
  - coherentpony 13y ago
    And you also presumably have the right to abode in The United States without employment.
- larrys 13y ago
  "Why would you quit without another job lined up? " If you make the decision in your head that you are going to quit then it's quite possible your work and your attitude will decline and either co workers or management will have a negative view of you by the time you do quit. In a sense this is similar to why many performers go out while on top (thinking of Seinfeld as one example) instead of waiting for ratings decline. You don't want to just be going through the motions.
  - coherentpony 13y ago
    That's a fair point, but with this approach one is left with a gap of unemployment in their CV. Unfortunately, even in today's economic climate, a gap in your CV is still seen as a negative to many employers.
    - mcv 13y ago
      I've never had anyone ask about the gaps in my CV. Never. I've been unemployed after the dotcom crash. Nobody cares. Last year I messed about on some of my own stuff. Everybody thinks it's fine. They just want to hire me. Admittedly it's possible that my CV looks a lot more attractive than the average CV, but personally I wouldn't know why. It's possible the job market in Netherland is better than in the US, though.
    - tlrobinson 13y ago
      For software developers the "CV gap" problem (if it really is a problem) seems easily solvable to me: do a little freelancing, and put that in the gap.
      - larrys 13y ago
        Along the lines of what PG said yesterday (which I commented on) regarding telling smallish lies (had to do with getting funded and how investors jump to conclusions) this is probably a case of "turnabout is fair play, eh". In other words if the person reading the resume is going to read (incorrectly) into the situation and penalize you for leaving it's ok to fib a bit in order to prevent them from having that wrong impression (which you can't correct if you don't get the interview).. A case of who draws first blood.
mbesto 13y ago
Judging from this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6042197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6042197 it sounds like you want to start your own company (and do more than code). Good luck.
fixxer 13y ago
Sorry dude, I disagree. As an employee, an employer, and an investor, I see your action as a giant red flag.
- amenod 13y ago
  The only red flag is that he has waited around when he lost creativity, and even that is not red - at least he had the courage to quit. It is a job of the employee to be creative (talking about design, of course). But it is the job of employer and investors to make an environment that challenges the employer. If they are unable to do that then any really creative employer will (or at least should) leave. @OP: good luck!!! I wish you well on your path, wherever it takes you.
  - 6d0debc071 13y ago
    > It is a job of the employee to be creative (talking about design, of course). But it is the job of employer and investors to make an environment that challenges the employer. If they are unable to do that then any really creative employer will (or at least should) leave. Well, that sort of goes back to a common theme in software companies: Are the people being hired as creatives or are they being hired to implement someone else's vision? My experience is that in most roles you're likely to be being hired for the latter - and having intelligence outside of the ability to do your assigned task efficiently is strongly discouraged in them.
  - fixxer 13y ago
    He lost creativity? He's, what, 23-24? Shit! Too early for a sabbatical... I didn't lose my creativity till 28.
- seiji 13y ago
  What action is a giant red flag?
- cantankerous 13y ago
  You see quitting a job as a red flag? I'm sure that's not actually what you meant. What do you mean?
jaynos 13y ago
If you quit to work on your own stuff (and have a nest egg to fall back on), have at it. If you plan on working for someone else, that employment gap would be a red flag.
- larrys 13y ago
  I could argue this either way but I think in the end there is little creative way to explain why you left that either doesn't make you sound hard to please, or as if you knew you were going to get axed in the near future, or you were asked to resign. (I'm trying real hard to find a spin but can't..) Otoh, I sold a business and everyone criticized me that I had nothing else lined up to do but I realized that I wouldn't be able to line something up to do while involved day to day in legacy enterprise. (Of course that was not the same as I wasn't looking for employment.)
  - Jare 13y ago
    > there is little creative way to explain why you left that either doesn't make you sound hard to please You solve that by not explaining why you left :) but instead focusing on where you want to go, and how the prospective company is the ideal place to achieve that.
    - hga 13y ago
      The company neutral "I got tired of the commute" is frequently also true and can be useful if the potential new company insists on knowing.
      - lightbritefight 13y ago
        I'm fond of "I'm looking to move into X technologies, and your company looks like a good fit." This had the added benefit of likely being true, and it complements the company without being sycophantic.
rwg 13y ago
"Just quit" doesn't always work out so well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5778653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5778653 If I've learned anything about working, it's that you never quit without another job lined up. Employment seems to be a prerequisite for finding employment.
- ctide 13y ago
  Working at a single place for 10 years and having 0 connections to other companies is not going to put you in a good place to find a job. I imagine they would struggle to find a job regardless of whether or not they quit.
  - vegor5 13y ago
    Yea, you really need to change job every 2 years at least. Otherwise you become unemployable. Unless you manages to get on the gravy train, in which case, congrats!
  - veguss2 13y ago
    Yea, you really need to change job every 2 years at least. Otherwise you become unemployable. Unless you manages to get on the gravy train, in which case, congrats!
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacalata 13y ago
      That's not actually true.
    - nostrademons 13y ago
      That's a negative signal as well: it shows that you job-hop frequently, get bored easily, and can't commit to any one company. In some companies (particularly startups) that's fine, in many it's the kiss of death. I think that what hiring managers want to see is that you fully exploit the opportunities available to you. That means that if you're in a good employer and given a lot of responsibility, you stay. If you're in a dead-end job where you're not learning anything, you leave. If it's a good company going through a rough patch, you stay. If it's just a bad company, you leave. Oftentimes that means you'll have stints of varying lengths on your resume: you may have a few of 1-2 years when starting out to find your footing, then a longer stint of 4-5 years at an industry-leader, then a shorter stint at a smaller company where you're given more responsibility, then a startup, and so on.
larrys 13y ago
I think you need to append/change the page with the "I want to work for Airbnb stuff": http://www.lorenburton.com/ http://www.lorenburton.com/ If you want to keep it up you should overlay something that says "I used to want to work at airbnb" but leave the rest. (Doesn't matter if you still want to work there or not saying "used to" doesn't mean "I won't still"). Leaving this up makes you seem like the jilted guy with high school puppy love. Not very attractive to other "women" who want to possibly date you.
- guynamedloren 13y ago
  Ha, yeah. Valid points.
mgkimsal 13y ago
"If you're good at what you do, you'll find a job you love immediately " Wow, really? Many (not all, though) of the people I know who are really good at some things also don't like the politics of working in companies/jobs at all, so finding a job they 'love' is near impossible. If you're leaving one job because of your own issues, you'll be taking those wherever you go.
dnautics 13y ago
Loren, if you're interested in some projects, I've got a nonprofit science foundation. If I have money (or better yet, if you're interested in doing the fundraising), I'd like to develop some much-needed open-source scientific management software. It would be great to have a project lead for such a thing. In my wildest dreams, I'd like to see it spun off as a for-profit that delivers the software in an enterprise edition (with the main software tree maintained by the nonprofit). I think there are a lot of unsolved ideas - like zero-friction data upload from instrumentation - possibly running on different platforms, wiki-like annotation and record keeping, setting up protocols with timers, and a uniform notification scheme that can be pushed out to a mobile device, etc....
boredprogrammer 13y ago
I've been in a similar position for the last 3 years (of a 9 year stint at current company), and your story does resonate with me. I am bored at what I do all day long and have lost the passion for doing any sort of programming in my free time. I've considered leaving a few times, but I always take a look at what sort of openings are out there before I hand in my notice, and the answer is: "there are none". There has been one programming position advertised in the city I live in in the last 3 years. That company has since closed - as I suspected it would (the entire team of 10 was Polish guys and gals and as it turns out they just wanted a presence in the country and farm out all the work back to Poland). Programmers in the US are totally spoiled right now, as there is a huge demand for them, but its not the same elsewhere. A number of other software businesses have also shut down or retreated back to their base. Life may be too short to be bored, but its also too short to become penniless and homeless in a few months after quitting because you couldn't hack it anymore in a dead end job.

coherentpony 13y ago

This doesn't make any sense to me. Why would you quit without another job lined up? You must have a ton of money already saved to cover the rent and feed the children. Or live with your parents. I couldn't just quit my job without having other work lined up.

mcv 13y ago
> Why would you quit without another job lined up? You must have a ton of money already saved to cover the rent and feed the children. If you've got children, you hopefully also have a spouse with his/her own income. I'm fortunate that my wife makes enough to pay the entire mortgage on just her income, so my money goes mostly to child care and various extras and luxuries. With a bit of savings we can make it for quite a while. If you're maintaining a family on a single income, then yeah, that kind of step is rather irresponsible. But if you live on your own, you'll have your hands free for anything.
cstejerean 13y ago
That's not a great position to be in. The company you work for can let you go at any moment whether or not you have something lined up, and if that's not something you can tolerate then you might want to start working on it (either by increasing your saving or by reducing the out of time it would take you to find another job).
- coherentpony 13y ago
  That's the case with any job, though. There's no such thing as a 'job for life' now. No matter how much one 'works on it', job security is a myth in industry in the 21st century. When someone says 'job security', the profession I immediately jump to is a tenured professorship. And those don't exactly come by frequently.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    "Supreme Court Justice" is up there too.
  - cgag 13y ago
    Yes, that's why everyone should have at least a few months of saftey net.
guynamedloren 13y ago
My parents live across the country, and I have no children. I don't have a ton of money, but I have some. I have enough to survive for several months (or longer, if needed). LA is expensive, but I'm relatively frugal.
- coherentpony 13y ago
  And you also presumably have the right to abode in The United States without employment.
larrys 13y ago
"Why would you quit without another job lined up? " If you make the decision in your head that you are going to quit then it's quite possible your work and your attitude will decline and either co workers or management will have a negative view of you by the time you do quit. In a sense this is similar to why many performers go out while on top (thinking of Seinfeld as one example) instead of waiting for ratings decline. You don't want to just be going through the motions.
- coherentpony 13y ago
  That's a fair point, but with this approach one is left with a gap of unemployment in their CV. Unfortunately, even in today's economic climate, a gap in your CV is still seen as a negative to many employers.
  - mcv 13y ago
    I've never had anyone ask about the gaps in my CV. Never. I've been unemployed after the dotcom crash. Nobody cares. Last year I messed about on some of my own stuff. Everybody thinks it's fine. They just want to hire me. Admittedly it's possible that my CV looks a lot more attractive than the average CV, but personally I wouldn't know why. It's possible the job market in Netherland is better than in the US, though.
  - tlrobinson 13y ago
    For software developers the "CV gap" problem (if it really is a problem) seems easily solvable to me: do a little freelancing, and put that in the gap.
    - larrys 13y ago
      Along the lines of what PG said yesterday (which I commented on) regarding telling smallish lies (had to do with getting funded and how investors jump to conclusions) this is probably a case of "turnabout is fair play, eh". In other words if the person reading the resume is going to read (incorrectly) into the situation and penalize you for leaving it's ok to fib a bit in order to prevent them from having that wrong impression (which you can't correct if you don't get the interview).. A case of who draws first blood.

mbesto 13y ago

Judging from this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6042197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6042197 it sounds like you want to start your own company (and do more than code). Good luck.

fixxer 13y ago

Sorry dude, I disagree. As an employee, an employer, and an investor, I see your action as a giant red flag.

amenod 13y ago
The only red flag is that he has waited around when he lost creativity, and even that is not red - at least he had the courage to quit. It is a job of the employee to be creative (talking about design, of course). But it is the job of employer and investors to make an environment that challenges the employer. If they are unable to do that then any really creative employer will (or at least should) leave. @OP: good luck!!! I wish you well on your path, wherever it takes you.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  > It is a job of the employee to be creative (talking about design, of course). But it is the job of employer and investors to make an environment that challenges the employer. If they are unable to do that then any really creative employer will (or at least should) leave. Well, that sort of goes back to a common theme in software companies: Are the people being hired as creatives or are they being hired to implement someone else's vision? My experience is that in most roles you're likely to be being hired for the latter - and having intelligence outside of the ability to do your assigned task efficiently is strongly discouraged in them.
- fixxer 13y ago
  He lost creativity? He's, what, 23-24? Shit! Too early for a sabbatical... I didn't lose my creativity till 28.
seiji 13y ago
What action is a giant red flag?
cantankerous 13y ago
You see quitting a job as a red flag? I'm sure that's not actually what you meant. What do you mean?

jaynos 13y ago

If you quit to work on your own stuff (and have a nest egg to fall back on), have at it. If you plan on working for someone else, that employment gap would be a red flag.

larrys 13y ago
I could argue this either way but I think in the end there is little creative way to explain why you left that either doesn't make you sound hard to please, or as if you knew you were going to get axed in the near future, or you were asked to resign. (I'm trying real hard to find a spin but can't..) Otoh, I sold a business and everyone criticized me that I had nothing else lined up to do but I realized that I wouldn't be able to line something up to do while involved day to day in legacy enterprise. (Of course that was not the same as I wasn't looking for employment.)
- Jare 13y ago
  > there is little creative way to explain why you left that either doesn't make you sound hard to please You solve that by not explaining why you left :) but instead focusing on where you want to go, and how the prospective company is the ideal place to achieve that.
  - hga 13y ago
    The company neutral "I got tired of the commute" is frequently also true and can be useful if the potential new company insists on knowing.
    - lightbritefight 13y ago
      I'm fond of "I'm looking to move into X technologies, and your company looks like a good fit." This had the added benefit of likely being true, and it complements the company without being sycophantic.

rwg 13y ago

"Just quit" doesn't always work out so well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5778653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5778653 If I've learned anything about working, it's that you never quit without another job lined up. Employment seems to be a prerequisite for finding employment.

ctide 13y ago
Working at a single place for 10 years and having 0 connections to other companies is not going to put you in a good place to find a job. I imagine they would struggle to find a job regardless of whether or not they quit.
- vegor5 13y ago
  Yea, you really need to change job every 2 years at least. Otherwise you become unemployable. Unless you manages to get on the gravy train, in which case, congrats!
- veguss2 13y ago
  Yea, you really need to change job every 2 years at least. Otherwise you become unemployable. Unless you manages to get on the gravy train, in which case, congrats!
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacalata 13y ago
    That's not actually true.
  - nostrademons 13y ago
    That's a negative signal as well: it shows that you job-hop frequently, get bored easily, and can't commit to any one company. In some companies (particularly startups) that's fine, in many it's the kiss of death. I think that what hiring managers want to see is that you fully exploit the opportunities available to you. That means that if you're in a good employer and given a lot of responsibility, you stay. If you're in a dead-end job where you're not learning anything, you leave. If it's a good company going through a rough patch, you stay. If it's just a bad company, you leave. Oftentimes that means you'll have stints of varying lengths on your resume: you may have a few of 1-2 years when starting out to find your footing, then a longer stint of 4-5 years at an industry-leader, then a shorter stint at a smaller company where you're given more responsibility, then a startup, and so on.

larrys 13y ago

I think you need to append/change the page with the "I want to work for Airbnb stuff": http://www.lorenburton.com/ http://www.lorenburton.com/ If you want to keep it up you should overlay something that says "I used to want to work at airbnb" but leave the rest. (Doesn't matter if you still want to work there or not saying "used to" doesn't mean "I won't still"). Leaving this up makes you seem like the jilted guy with high school puppy love. Not very attractive to other "women" who want to possibly date you.

guynamedloren 13y ago
Ha, yeah. Valid points.

mgkimsal 13y ago

"If you're good at what you do, you'll find a job you love immediately " Wow, really? Many (not all, though) of the people I know who are really good at some things also don't like the politics of working in companies/jobs at all, so finding a job they 'love' is near impossible. If you're leaving one job because of your own issues, you'll be taking those wherever you go.

dnautics 13y ago

Loren, if you're interested in some projects, I've got a nonprofit science foundation. If I have money (or better yet, if you're interested in doing the fundraising), I'd like to develop some much-needed open-source scientific management software. It would be great to have a project lead for such a thing. In my wildest dreams, I'd like to see it spun off as a for-profit that delivers the software in an enterprise edition (with the main software tree maintained by the nonprofit). I think there are a lot of unsolved ideas - like zero-friction data upload from instrumentation - possibly running on different platforms, wiki-like annotation and record keeping, setting up protocols with timers, and a uniform notification scheme that can be pushed out to a mobile device, etc....

boredprogrammer 13y ago

I've been in a similar position for the last 3 years (of a 9 year stint at current company), and your story does resonate with me. I am bored at what I do all day long and have lost the passion for doing any sort of programming in my free time. I've considered leaving a few times, but I always take a look at what sort of openings are out there before I hand in my notice, and the answer is: "there are none". There has been one programming position advertised in the city I live in in the last 3 years. That company has since closed - as I suspected it would (the entire team of 10 was Polish guys and gals and as it turns out they just wanted a presence in the country and farm out all the work back to Poland). Programmers in the US are totally spoiled right now, as there is a huge demand for them, but its not the same elsewhere. A number of other software businesses have also shut down or retreated back to their base. Life may be too short to be bored, but its also too short to become penniless and homeless in a few months after quitting because you couldn't hack it anymore in a dead end job.