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Obama wanted to brand Snowden as a traitor, ignoring the detail, subtlety and nuances involved in the case. Black and while, Snowden is a traitor. Yes? Now, Ru

by alan_cx 13y ago

Obama wanted to brand Snowden as a traitor, ignoring the detail, subtlety and nuances involved in the case. Black and while, Snowden is a traitor. Yes? Now, Russia gives Snowden temporary asylum, so in retaliation, Bush.... sorry, Obama cancels meeting with Putin. Black and white, yes? Let us, wipe out the detail and nuance. That is the rules, right? So if Snowden is to be branded a traitor, Obama can be branded a petulant, entitled, pampered, sulky, embarrassed, teen-aged child who is used to getting his own way, and will throw toys out of the pram when mommy says "no". Point being, this business of dirty tricks PR bites both sides. If Obama and co want us to see Snowden as a black and white traitor, we are perfectly entitled to state that the Putin meeting is canceled because of the Snowden asylum, and ignore and of the other details. Or US politics could grow up. The US gov could admit over reach. It could thank Snowden and hail a new era of openness. It could redefine its role with people, all people not just precious Americans, (we are all equal, right?) and stop defaulting to treating them all like potential criminals, communists, terrorists, drug dealers, pedophiles.......

TausAmmer 13y ago
If exposing information to public is being a traitor, what is public to US then?
mjolk 13y ago
>"Now, Russia gives Snowden temporary asylum, so in retaliation, Bush.... sorry, Obama cancels meeting with Putin" Oh ho ho, what a clever ruse, pretending to confuse Bush with Obama. >Or US politics could grow up. The US gov could admit over reach. It could thank Snowden and hail a new era of openness. Your command of politics and reality is astounding.
- Karunamon 13y ago
  Politics often has a tenuous connection to reality.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  "Oh ho ho, what a clever ruse, pretending to confuse Bush with Obama." Firstly, I actually did. Bush went through my mind as I was typing. I realized as I was typing. I was about to delete back, but I thought it was quite interesting to leave the typo. Also, I often do leave typos. Sometimes they say more than what I intended. No, not a normal thing to do and perhaps confusing to the reader, agreed. And yes, it makes me weird. Next... from a UK perspective, Bush and Obama are both "far" (not trying to align US "right" with the fascist notion of "far right") right in comparison to the main UK right wing party. From my POV, Bush and Obama are(1) essentially the same. From my perspective the US simply does not have a "left". Just "far" right and even more right. Its an extreme right wing country. The US has no left of center political party at all, let alone socialist, and heaven forbid, communist. Understand, I make no value judgement there. The US being an extreme capitalist right country is required to balance with extreme left countries like Russian and China. You final part is sadly mere childish ignorant assumptive insult. I'll leave you to that. (1)BTW, see that word "are"? I slipped and typed "asre" by mistake. Nearly "arse". Had that been mis-typed as "arse" I might well have left it in. See how my insanity works? See the mystical power of the typo? Definitely something Freudian going on there, right?
mpyne 13y ago
FWIW Obama's cancellation of the summit is getting rave reviews from basically every major paper I've looked at. Conservative-leaning ones think Obama should go farther, liberal-leaning ones seem to acknowledge that Obama has gotten nothing from trying and it's time to quit proving Einsteinian insanity correct. All of them note that there was way more going into this decision than Snowden; his was the proverbial straw on the camel's back.
- tripzilch 13y ago
  Except that, as the article indicates, this particular straw does not in fact carry any weight, apart from Russia's unwillingness to break their own and international laws for the sole purpose of pleasing the US.
  - aet 13y ago
    I guess Russia doesn't feel like they are breaking the law when they are beating and murdering journalists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_R...
    - tripzilch 13y ago
      Yes, Russia isn't particularly well-behaved when it comes to human rights, okay, I don't think many people disagree. But please explain how, them breaking laws in self-serving, corrupted or even arbitrary circumstances, is relevant to their unwillingness to break it again just to please the US? (there's also some very interesting implications if the US would bring up the argument you sketch)
      - aet 13y ago
        I guess my point is that breaking the law isn't a huge deal there. Russia is characterized by "weak rule of law and the high corruption levels." [1],[2] Putin stole some guys super bowl ring in broad day light. [3] I just don't think their would be a lot of outrage from Russian citizens if Snowden were to be extradited. They have other stuff to worry about. I think "rule of law" is not the constraint here. Not say the Falk is wrong. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-28/russia-s-corruption-hampers-growth-rating-moody-s-says.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-28/russia-s-corruption... [2] http://www.cnbc.com/id/100805382 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100805382 [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-21/putin-makes-super-bowl-ring-replacement-for-patriots-owner-kraft.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-21/putin-makes-super-b...
cenhyperion 13y ago
See also how almost all of the government's and white house's comments have been about Snowden, not the actual issue of them spying on us.
aet 13y ago
Could you clarify your position with regards to a "new era of openness"? Is it that the U.S. should be "open" with military intelligence?
Gormo 13y ago
> Obama can be branded a petulant, entitled, pampered, sulky, embarrassed, teen-aged child Entitled? What's he entitled to?

by alan_cx 13y ago

TausAmmer 13y ago

If exposing information to public is being a traitor, what is public to US then?

mjolk 13y ago

>"Now, Russia gives Snowden temporary asylum, so in retaliation, Bush.... sorry, Obama cancels meeting with Putin" Oh ho ho, what a clever ruse, pretending to confuse Bush with Obama. >Or US politics could grow up. The US gov could admit over reach. It could thank Snowden and hail a new era of openness. Your command of politics and reality is astounding.

Karunamon 13y ago
Politics often has a tenuous connection to reality.
alan_cx 13y ago
"Oh ho ho, what a clever ruse, pretending to confuse Bush with Obama." Firstly, I actually did. Bush went through my mind as I was typing. I realized as I was typing. I was about to delete back, but I thought it was quite interesting to leave the typo. Also, I often do leave typos. Sometimes they say more than what I intended. No, not a normal thing to do and perhaps confusing to the reader, agreed. And yes, it makes me weird. Next... from a UK perspective, Bush and Obama are both "far" (not trying to align US "right" with the fascist notion of "far right") right in comparison to the main UK right wing party. From my POV, Bush and Obama are(1) essentially the same. From my perspective the US simply does not have a "left". Just "far" right and even more right. Its an extreme right wing country. The US has no left of center political party at all, let alone socialist, and heaven forbid, communist. Understand, I make no value judgement there. The US being an extreme capitalist right country is required to balance with extreme left countries like Russian and China. You final part is sadly mere childish ignorant assumptive insult. I'll leave you to that. (1)BTW, see that word "are"? I slipped and typed "asre" by mistake. Nearly "arse". Had that been mis-typed as "arse" I might well have left it in. See how my insanity works? See the mystical power of the typo? Definitely something Freudian going on there, right?

mpyne 13y ago

FWIW Obama's cancellation of the summit is getting rave reviews from basically every major paper I've looked at. Conservative-leaning ones think Obama should go farther, liberal-leaning ones seem to acknowledge that Obama has gotten nothing from trying and it's time to quit proving Einsteinian insanity correct. All of them note that there was way more going into this decision than Snowden; his was the proverbial straw on the camel's back.

tripzilch 13y ago
Except that, as the article indicates, this particular straw does not in fact carry any weight, apart from Russia's unwillingness to break their own and international laws for the sole purpose of pleasing the US.
- aet 13y ago
  I guess Russia doesn't feel like they are breaking the law when they are beating and murdering journalists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_R...
  - tripzilch 13y ago
    Yes, Russia isn't particularly well-behaved when it comes to human rights, okay, I don't think many people disagree. But please explain how, them breaking laws in self-serving, corrupted or even arbitrary circumstances, is relevant to their unwillingness to break it again just to please the US? (there's also some very interesting implications if the US would bring up the argument you sketch)
    - aet 13y ago
      I guess my point is that breaking the law isn't a huge deal there. Russia is characterized by "weak rule of law and the high corruption levels." [1],[2] Putin stole some guys super bowl ring in broad day light. [3] I just don't think their would be a lot of outrage from Russian citizens if Snowden were to be extradited. They have other stuff to worry about. I think "rule of law" is not the constraint here. Not say the Falk is wrong. [1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-28/russia-s-corruption-hampers-growth-rating-moody-s-says.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-28/russia-s-corruption... [2] http://www.cnbc.com/id/100805382 http://www.cnbc.com/id/100805382 [3] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-21/putin-makes-super-bowl-ring-replacement-for-patriots-owner-kraft.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-21/putin-makes-super-b...

cenhyperion 13y ago

See also how almost all of the government's and white house's comments have been about Snowden, not the actual issue of them spying on us.

aet 13y ago

Could you clarify your position with regards to a "new era of openness"? Is it that the U.S. should be "open" with military intelligence?

Gormo 13y ago

> Obama can be branded a petulant, entitled, pampered, sulky, embarrassed, teen-aged child Entitled? What's he entitled to?