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What this episode has shown, is that a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry. EDIT:

by sampo 13y ago

What this episode has shown, is that a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry. EDIT: Also some people responding to this comment (whoa).

JanezStupar 13y ago
Which in turn just shows how successful is American propaganda.
johansch 13y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism
- tareqak 13y ago
  Honest question here. Isn't "American exceptionalism" the same kind of view that people of global superpowers throughout the ages would have had? "All roads lead to Rome" comes to mind, but there are probably a few others. Even the creation myths of a number of different civilizations consider the natives to be blessed somehow e.g. descended from the gods (compare this to how Americans see the Constitution and the Founding Fathers). EDIT: Actually, maybe a better example is legend of how Romulus and Remus (the founders of Rome) were raised by a she-wolf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus.
  - pmjordan 13y ago
    Or atrocities committed by organised religion, even though such action is considered a horrific sin according to the same religion's scripture. (it doesn't always have to be nation states - the size of the tribe doesn't seem to matter) The justification invariably seems to be that the oppressed are inferior in some way. Belief in the wrong god, wrong skin colour, whatever. I think it's probably a fundamental mechanism in the human psyche for coping with the cognitive dissonance of the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that seems to come naturally as a consequence of power, unless consciously, actively and continuously worked against. Maybe yet another "passing on your genes" instinct?
  - johnchristopher 13y ago
    You are on to something but it seems that american exceptionalism was there from the very beginning and before it was a global superpower : From wikipedia: Jefferson envisaged America becoming the world's great "empire of liberty"--that is, the model for democracy and republicanism. He identified his nation as a beacon to the world, for, he said on departing the presidency in 1809, America was: "Trusted with the destinies of this solitary republic of the world, the only monument of human rights, and the sole depository of the sacred fire of freedom and self-government, from hence it is to be lighted up in other regions of the earth, if other regions of the earth shall ever become susceptible of its benign influence."[37] Off-topic: that wp [1] page states that american decline started at the end of the eighties. It makes an interesting read as I think the mass media put it around 9/11. Happened before 9/11 but that event crystallized that decline. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism Edit: 1. The US declared independence in 1776 and were recognized in 1783. Is 30 years between this and Jefferson statement too much to say "it was there from the beginning ?" 2. What about 1600's and 1700's US religious people and their own beliefs when they established themselves in that new promised land ? How does it relate to "American ideology, "Americanism", based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, republicanism, populism and laissez-faire." (from the first paragraph of that wp page) ?
    - tareqak 13y ago
      I agree that American exceptionalism was there from the very beginning, but I think that concept was used to justify a narrower set of long-term goals. Those goals changed as some were achieved and the original message being adapted in the face of new challenges. The idea seems related to start-up culture as well (think "two guys in a garage", and "we're different" as well as "war stories from back in the day" during shareholder meetings). Time will tell if setting ourselves apart sets us up for failure in the long-term.
    - deveac 13y ago
      >You are on to something but it seems that american exceptionalism was there from the very beginning and before it was a global superpower Maybe 'global superpower' wasn't a metric early America used to inform its (yet unnamed) notion of exceptionalism. Your quote from Jefferson speaks of an "empire of liberty." This could make sense if you think about it. Young America had just accomplished the almost unthinkable feat of winning independence from the Globe's biggest superpower of the time. In winning this liberty, the young nation began its life by defining itself through this hard won liberty. In a sense, America's view of what made it special might have been a response to and departure from the concept of a superpower (which it had just cast off). The characteristics he lists: >monument of human rights...freedom and self-government...it is to be lighted up in other regions of the earth if other regions of the earth shall ever become susceptible of its benign influence. His dialogue doesn't involve power or might, but rather rights and example. Even the hopeful spread of America's influence is framed as something to be willingly adopted and benign. I'm not a student of American history, so I don't know how consistent this interpretation is with the other writings and beliefs of the day, but it's really sad to me how far we've fallen from this ideal. The modern American practitioners of American Exceptionalism seem to have perverted it beyond recognition. Especially when you look at how many of these same administrations prop up dictators when it serves our perceived interests.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
tome 13y ago
Whilst I acually agree with simonh's point, there's nothing like an actual symmetry here. Russia is, and always has been, a far more oppressive state than the US ever has been.
- chunkyslink 13y ago
  Have you any evidence to back up this claim? I would wager that the list of countries attacked, invaded or 'freed' as they like to say, is way higher for the USA than Russia. That in my book makes the USA much more oppressive than Russia.
  - tome 13y ago
    Yes, my evidence is the whole history of Russia from the Tsars, through communism, to post communism, plus the history of the US from the War of Independence onwards. The US played a huge role (though not quite as much as Americans would like to think!) in freeing Western Europe from Nazism, freeing Asia from Imperial Japan and freeing Eastern Europe from communism. It played a huge role in reconstructing Europe after WWII and I guess the same is true of Japan. Unfortunately the HN mix of American libertarians and European liberals is rather myopic on this issue.
    - bausson 13y ago
      Sure, US played a huge role in freeing Europe from Nazism. Which doesn't mean they played a bigger role in it that URSS. EDIT: >> However I am grateful I am from a country that fell under US influnce than one that fell under USSR influence. As a Western European, I can relate. I am just pointing that picking WW2 intervention is not the best way to crown US over URSS.
      - tome 13y ago
        That is indeed true. However I am grateful I am from a country that fell under US influnce than one that fell under USSR influence. YMMV. Still, many of those who are now lauding Russia here will actually be glad they didn't grow up in the former Eastern Bloc, and that strikes me as a somewhat inconsistent viewpoint.
berntb 13y ago
>> a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry. Russia is quickly turning away from [Edit: the road to] democracy, the state seems to become integrated with organized crime. And Russia support some of today's worst mass murderers/torturers. That is a large lack of symmetry... which you are fully aware of, but ignore yourself. And no, I'm not arguing that USA, or any other place, is perfect. But there are grades of grey. Subjects like this, where lots of believers have knee reflex reactions and just hate, don't work on HN or on any non-moderated discussion board. (And that is even before the trolls come out to make fun of the fanatics.)
- tome 13y ago
  > Russia is quickly turning away from democracy You're very generous to suggest they've ever been anything like a democracy. > Subjects like this, where lots of believers have knee reflex reactions and just hate, don't work on HN or on any non-moderated discussion board Indeed.
- tomp 13y ago
  In my view, the US is also quickly turning away from democracy, along with many other western nations. They are becoming more and more integrated with organized crime (banks, military complex, surveillance business, cyberattacks, ...). And they are some of today's worst mass murderers (Afghanistan, Iraq) and torturers (Guantanamo, Manning).
- pkinsky 13y ago
  > And Russia support some of today's worst mass murderers/torturers. Are you arguing for or against symmetry? The US has gotten much better since the end of the Cold War, but we still prop up the House of Saud, for example.
- informatic001 13y ago
  Maybe you should consider reading this by Catherine Austin Fitts, an former Assistant Secretary of Housing - Federal Housing Commissioner, Bush I. "The dependence of the U.S. economy and the federal finances on war and organized crime is significant and to date enjoys the popular support of the general population. I have written about the federal governments involvement in narcotics trafficking and financial fraud, and support in the general population for that involvement. Here are four excerpts: ..... One of the dirty little secrets behind the housing bubble is the long standing partnership of narcotics trafficking and mortgage fraud and the use of the two in combination to target and destroy minority and poor communities with highly profitable economic warfare. This model is global. It is operating in counties throughout the world as well as in US communities." Other excerpts can be read here: http://solari.com/articles/beyond_the_fiscal_cliff http://solari.com/articles/beyond_the_fiscal_cliff

by sampo 13y ago

JanezStupar 13y ago

Which in turn just shows how successful is American propaganda.

johansch 13y ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

tareqak 13y ago
Honest question here. Isn't "American exceptionalism" the same kind of view that people of global superpowers throughout the ages would have had? "All roads lead to Rome" comes to mind, but there are probably a few others. Even the creation myths of a number of different civilizations consider the natives to be blessed somehow e.g. descended from the gods (compare this to how Americans see the Constitution and the Founding Fathers). EDIT: Actually, maybe a better example is legend of how Romulus and Remus (the founders of Rome) were raised by a she-wolf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romulus_and_Remus.
- pmjordan 13y ago
  Or atrocities committed by organised religion, even though such action is considered a horrific sin according to the same religion's scripture. (it doesn't always have to be nation states - the size of the tribe doesn't seem to matter) The justification invariably seems to be that the oppressed are inferior in some way. Belief in the wrong god, wrong skin colour, whatever. I think it's probably a fundamental mechanism in the human psyche for coping with the cognitive dissonance of the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that seems to come naturally as a consequence of power, unless consciously, actively and continuously worked against. Maybe yet another "passing on your genes" instinct?
- johnchristopher 13y ago
  You are on to something but it seems that american exceptionalism was there from the very beginning and before it was a global superpower : From wikipedia: Jefferson envisaged America becoming the world's great "empire of liberty"--that is, the model for democracy and republicanism. He identified his nation as a beacon to the world, for, he said on departing the presidency in 1809, America was: "Trusted with the destinies of this solitary republic of the world, the only monument of human rights, and the sole depository of the sacred fire of freedom and self-government, from hence it is to be lighted up in other regions of the earth, if other regions of the earth shall ever become susceptible of its benign influence."[37] Off-topic: that wp [1] page states that american decline started at the end of the eighties. It makes an interesting read as I think the mass media put it around 9/11. Happened before 9/11 but that event crystallized that decline. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism Edit: 1. The US declared independence in 1776 and were recognized in 1783. Is 30 years between this and Jefferson statement too much to say "it was there from the beginning ?" 2. What about 1600's and 1700's US religious people and their own beliefs when they established themselves in that new promised land ? How does it relate to "American ideology, "Americanism", based on liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, republicanism, populism and laissez-faire." (from the first paragraph of that wp page) ?
  - tareqak 13y ago
    I agree that American exceptionalism was there from the very beginning, but I think that concept was used to justify a narrower set of long-term goals. Those goals changed as some were achieved and the original message being adapted in the face of new challenges. The idea seems related to start-up culture as well (think "two guys in a garage", and "we're different" as well as "war stories from back in the day" during shareholder meetings). Time will tell if setting ourselves apart sets us up for failure in the long-term.
  - deveac 13y ago
    >You are on to something but it seems that american exceptionalism was there from the very beginning and before it was a global superpower Maybe 'global superpower' wasn't a metric early America used to inform its (yet unnamed) notion of exceptionalism. Your quote from Jefferson speaks of an "empire of liberty." This could make sense if you think about it. Young America had just accomplished the almost unthinkable feat of winning independence from the Globe's biggest superpower of the time. In winning this liberty, the young nation began its life by defining itself through this hard won liberty. In a sense, America's view of what made it special might have been a response to and departure from the concept of a superpower (which it had just cast off). The characteristics he lists: >monument of human rights...freedom and self-government...it is to be lighted up in other regions of the earth if other regions of the earth shall ever become susceptible of its benign influence. His dialogue doesn't involve power or might, but rather rights and example. Even the hopeful spread of America's influence is framed as something to be willingly adopted and benign. I'm not a student of American history, so I don't know how consistent this interpretation is with the other writings and beliefs of the day, but it's really sad to me how far we've fallen from this ideal. The modern American practitioners of American Exceptionalism seem to have perverted it beyond recognition. Especially when you look at how many of these same administrations prop up dictators when it serves our perceived interests.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

tome 13y ago

Whilst I acually agree with simonh's point, there's nothing like an actual symmetry here. Russia is, and always has been, a far more oppressive state than the US ever has been.

chunkyslink 13y ago
Have you any evidence to back up this claim? I would wager that the list of countries attacked, invaded or 'freed' as they like to say, is way higher for the USA than Russia. That in my book makes the USA much more oppressive than Russia.
- tome 13y ago
  Yes, my evidence is the whole history of Russia from the Tsars, through communism, to post communism, plus the history of the US from the War of Independence onwards. The US played a huge role (though not quite as much as Americans would like to think!) in freeing Western Europe from Nazism, freeing Asia from Imperial Japan and freeing Eastern Europe from communism. It played a huge role in reconstructing Europe after WWII and I guess the same is true of Japan. Unfortunately the HN mix of American libertarians and European liberals is rather myopic on this issue.
  - bausson 13y ago
    Sure, US played a huge role in freeing Europe from Nazism. Which doesn't mean they played a bigger role in it that URSS. EDIT: >> However I am grateful I am from a country that fell under US influnce than one that fell under USSR influence. As a Western European, I can relate. I am just pointing that picking WW2 intervention is not the best way to crown US over URSS.
    - tome 13y ago
      That is indeed true. However I am grateful I am from a country that fell under US influnce than one that fell under USSR influence. YMMV. Still, many of those who are now lauding Russia here will actually be glad they didn't grow up in the former Eastern Bloc, and that strikes me as a somewhat inconsistent viewpoint.

berntb 13y ago

>> a surprising number of Americans (also commenters here in Hacker News) seem to lack that kind of sense of symmetry. Russia is quickly turning away from [Edit: the road to] democracy, the state seems to become integrated with organized crime. And Russia support some of today's worst mass murderers/torturers. That is a large lack of symmetry... which you are fully aware of, but ignore yourself. And no, I'm not arguing that USA, or any other place, is perfect. But there are grades of grey. Subjects like this, where lots of believers have knee reflex reactions and just hate, don't work on HN or on any non-moderated discussion board. (And that is even before the trolls come out to make fun of the fanatics.)

tome 13y ago
> Russia is quickly turning away from democracy You're very generous to suggest they've ever been anything like a democracy. > Subjects like this, where lots of believers have knee reflex reactions and just hate, don't work on HN or on any non-moderated discussion board Indeed.
tomp 13y ago
In my view, the US is also quickly turning away from democracy, along with many other western nations. They are becoming more and more integrated with organized crime (banks, military complex, surveillance business, cyberattacks, ...). And they are some of today's worst mass murderers (Afghanistan, Iraq) and torturers (Guantanamo, Manning).
pkinsky 13y ago
> And Russia support some of today's worst mass murderers/torturers. Are you arguing for or against symmetry? The US has gotten much better since the end of the Cold War, but we still prop up the House of Saud, for example.
informatic001 13y ago
Maybe you should consider reading this by Catherine Austin Fitts, an former Assistant Secretary of Housing - Federal Housing Commissioner, Bush I. "The dependence of the U.S. economy and the federal finances on war and organized crime is significant and to date enjoys the popular support of the general population. I have written about the federal governments involvement in narcotics trafficking and financial fraud, and support in the general population for that involvement. Here are four excerpts: ..... One of the dirty little secrets behind the housing bubble is the long standing partnership of narcotics trafficking and mortgage fraud and the use of the two in combination to target and destroy minority and poor communities with highly profitable economic warfare. This model is global. It is operating in counties throughout the world as well as in US communities." Other excerpts can be read here: http://solari.com/articles/beyond_the_fiscal_cliff http://solari.com/articles/beyond_the_fiscal_cliff