6 ms·

The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studi

by NamTaf 13y ago

The US university loan system is fucked. We have a government-run loan scheme called HECS. You defer your university fees throughout the duration of your studies, apparently no matter how long they last. The programme is not means tested at all, so it is available for every single domestic student studying uni here, no matter what. That loan is then paid back only once you start earning more than a threshold amount of taxable income (this year, $51,309 - it's not a low income by any stretch) and the payment amount is graduated depending on how much over you earn, from 4% of your income at that threshold amount to 9% once you hit $95,288 or above [1]. There is no real interest charged on the debt - the loan is only indexed to CPI every year, so that the real cost of the loan amount doesn't change. The repayment is treated like tax - either taken out as you earn your wage or squared every year upon doing your tax return. The perk that rich people get is that if they pay their bill upfront (that is, each semester as they study), they get a 10% discount on the total cost of the tuition for that semester (apparently, off memory it was 25% when I went through about 5-10 years ago). If you put it on HECS, you instead pay the full amount. Oh, and also for every domestic student, a semester of full-time study costs on the order of $3000-$5000, so a 3 year degree is about $18k-$30k of the above debt [2], depending on what you study. It's heavily subsidised by the government. The system is funded, in part, by international students, who pay the full fee amounts (no government subsidy) if they choose to study here. The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt then flee the country. If they earn no taxable income here, they never have to pay it back no matter how much they earn overseas. I can't really think of an easy way to resolve this because it's impossible to garnish income from another country. Nevertheless, the system works reasonably well. [1]: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/loan-repayment/pages/loan-repayment#HowMuchWillMyRepaymentsBe http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan... [2]: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/helppayingmyfees/csps/pages/student-contribution-amounts#2013 http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/helppayingmyfees...

applecore 13y ago
The U.S. has a really helpful student loan repayment program — and no one's using it: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-07/the-u-dot-s-dot-has-a-really-helpful-student-loan-repayment-program-and-no-ones-using-it http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-07/the-u-dot-s-...
- ChuckMcM 13y ago
  Which isn't highlighted because the narrative that is not "Hey we are helping people get college educations" the narrative is "Rich people can afford to send their kids to school, poor people can't, its increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots." That second narrative gets you rage views and votes for office, pretty much without regard with evidence to the contrary. Students can get a college degree at state schools for about the same cost as buying a new car, and on much more favorable loan terms. That said, there are lots of ways we could improve how we grant student aid, in my last letter to my Senators I suggested that providing need-blind aid for STEM degrees (Creating in demand workers and part of the alleged worker shortage) would serve the double benefit of both getting people college degrees, and getting employers the legal resident college graduates they seem to so urgently desire. It is a simple idea but if you subscribe to the idea that tax payer funds should be allocated for the improvement of the citizenry and society, having a larger qualified worker pool seems to meet that requirement.
vertis 13y ago
HECS is amazing. I would never have been able to afford university without it. Mine has long since been paid back (a painless process).
dorian-graph 13y ago
Yup, HECS is wonderful. I'm a current engineering student and it's offloaded a major concern from my mind about university. University used to be free in Australia a few decades ago, I believe. I think there IS a limit on how long studies go. When I changed degrees I remember one of the Centrelink mentioning something graduation date and if it's within a range—I should check. Also, they've proposed to remove the HECS-HELP discounts[1]. [1]: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/news/pages/changes-to-hecs-help-discounts-and-voluntary-repayment-bonus http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/news/pages/chang...
- NamTaf 13y ago
  I thought there was too, but apparently that was removed as of 01/01/12. Quoth a big PDF [1]: "As of 1 January 2012, there is no limit to the amount of study you can undertake in a CSP. However, it is important to note that some approved providers may have academic probation procedures in place and if you are not progressing satisfactorily in your course, your enrolment may be cancelled." [1]: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/StudyAssist/HelpfulResources/Documents/CSS%20and%20HECS-HELP%20information%20for%202013.pdf http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/StudyAssist/HelpfulResources... (page 14 of the PDF file, page 7 shown in the booklet corner)
anologwintermut 13y ago
HECS is nice, I knew a number of Aussie engineers at Microsoft who got a good education and as you said, fled the country. Low interest loans are not the worst idea if people actually stop to ask themselves if their major will provide the enough income to pay them back. They avoid the flee the jurisdiction problem an the waste money on a useless major problem. Its reasonably rational to pay the money to go to Stanford for CS even if you pair full freight. It's probably not economically rational to do so for sociology. The problem of course, in the US, is that no one asked themselves if they could afford to pay back the loans given what they intended to do. Its some mass collective delusion. The other problem, is that every time they up the amount for federal student loans, universities up their tuition to match.
- roskilli 13y ago
  I'm an Australian ex-patriot who went straight to Microsoft after study and although myself and other friends who did the same aren't paying back their HECS now we all agree in the mid-to-late future when we return to Australia we will pay our HECS in full and likely later than others so with a little more interest too. Honestly I think the brain drain is the biggest downside to Australians moving overseas after higher education, it's hard for me to move back after seeing the opportunities here.
AlexDanger 13y ago
> The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt then flee the country. Do you have any stats on how much HECS is lost in this manner? I've not heard of this being a big problem. One of my friends is in this category - he got a PHD scholarship at a top institution in the UK and isnt likely to return to Australia anytime soon. But I'd have thought the overall impact of brain drain (Australia is generally not a good place for top end R&D [1][2]) would have a far greater impact on Australia's future than an unpaid $30k HECS debt. That all said, HECS is an amazing system and we are so lucky to have it here. I remember as a teenager when I first learnt that you had to pay upfront to go to college in the USA. I thought it was bullshit. What happens if you're poor? It seemed so ridiculously unfair that I thought it must be false. Oh the innocence of youth. edit: urgh, sorry about the paywall. Go via google and you'll bypass it. [1]: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/universities-in-top-500-leiden-research-ranking/story-e6frgcjx-1226623776420 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/universitie... [2]: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/brain-drain-must-be-halted-says-telstra-boss-david-thodey/story-e6frgakx-1226667127562 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/brain-drain-mu...
- NamTaf 13y ago
  I don't, but I'd love to see some if anyone has any. The problem is that because the only interest on the loan is CPI, the HECS system is essentially a fixed pool of money that is temporary loaned to students then paid back, real-dollar for real-dollar. By not paying it back, it's essentially 1 student's volume of study that is lost out of that pool. I don't know how significant that 'leak rate' is though, so I can't put a figure on whether it's stressing the funds or not.
  - AlexDanger 13y ago
    The only reason I suspect its not a big problem is neither political party seem to be whining about it. Perhaps the boom economy over the last few years has hidden the problem. Graduates from IT/Engineering/Geology had a very good chance of skyrocketing into a top income bracket after only 1-2 years on the job. In terms of NPV this accelerated repayment makes the pool of money larger. And vice versa in a slow economy. I'm quite certain the previous generation didn't see their income climb so fast relative to their years of experience.
SCdF 13y ago
New Zealand has a similar system. All kiwis can get a student loan, which you can put class fees, some living costs and a few other expenses under. You can also apply for a student allowance which you don't have to pay back, but you have to qualify (e.g. you and your family are poor). With the student loan, it's a no interest loan as long as you're in the country. If you leave it defaults to a normal loan (not sure the % is). While you're working and make over a certain minimal amount the govt takes 10% of your income to pay it off. I'm not sure how much it is now, but I graduated in 2006 with a BSc in CS and my loan was somewhere around 21k.
- AlexDanger 13y ago
  Australia has the same full-time study allowance (Youth Allowance). When I was at uni it was about $350 a fortnight. Enough money for rent in a share house, food, a carton of cheap beer and perhaps some petrol. You could survive on it if you were frugal. The weirdest part was the means testing to make sure you were 'independent' and hence eligible to recieve the government money regardless of your parents assets. My parents werent poor but they were in no position to pay my living expenses whilst I went to uni. Proving you were independent involved showing you'd worked full time for over a year or earnt a massive amount of money in a short period of time (I cant remember exactly but it was around $15k). I worked 12 hour days at a factory over the summer break for 2 and a half months and with some other part time work managed to meet the income requirements. I started uni with a very healthy bank account. I just thought it was somewhat weird that I had to work so hard and earn so much money...so I was eligible for the government to give me more money.
vacri 13y ago
There was even a golden period, '84 - '88, where it was entirely free to get a degree in Australia. Australia needs something like HECS to encourage skills. Even with the loss of those going overseas, to support a service-based economy, it's still necessary to maintain domestic skills. The US is less in need - it is where the brain-drain of the world goes - which may be why their government feels less of the pinch.
- hef19898 13y ago
  In germany most degrees are free, besides somtimes a 500,- € or so fee per semester. Excetions are MBAs and certain part-time studies. I'll start a Master of Business Administration and Engineering in Octobre that costs a neat 104,- Euro per year.
  - vacri 13y ago
    That's outstanding and to be encouraged, but I do think that HECS is an elegant solution - you're only eligible to pay back your studies when your salary rises above a mediocre level. Australians can also get a small stipend to live on during their undergraduate degree (I think Germany does this as well, but I'm not sure).
    - hef19898 13y ago
      Yes, we have something called Bafoeg (great german abbriviation for a law ;-)). It's valid for all forms of education (most of them, apparently there's a white list), given you're total income and assets are below a certain threshold. And yes, these systems are really nice for students with low income or wealth. They open up opportunities and provide education to more people, which is always good I think.
dools 13y ago
Another advantage to paying full fees (and criticism of the HECS system) is that the score required to get into most courses is lower for full fee paying students. This is simply because there is less competition for those places but it does essentially mean that stupid rich kids can get into uni ahead of poor kids who are less stupid. And not only do we have HECS, but we have Youth Allowance which gives you money while you're studying, to live on. It's similar to the case described in this article, though: if you earn over a certain amount your Youth Allowance is reduced but it's clearly stated in the rules how it works so most students get jobs at small restaurants where they get paid under the table. Works out pretty well.
- danjayh 13y ago
  So you freely admit that most students defraud the system, yet you still consider it the case that it "works out pretty well"?
  - emikulic 13y ago
    I think you just proved tzs's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6177335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6177335
  - dools 13y ago
    Judging by how freakin sweet living in Australia is I'd say it's working pretty well.
hef19898 13y ago
One of my friends back at university had his satae allowance reduced after his father retired and earned less than before. The reason was that now he fell into a higher category of a lower income bracket instead of the lower one of the higher bracket. Nice logic. Another one had to fight off fraud charges after she declared a bank account her grandmother had created in her name over a decade ago she didn't know about before. That, and she lost a huge chunk of the allowance, too.
tzs 13y ago
> The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt then flee the country. That would be the big roadblock to implementing something like that in the US. In the US, when evaluating whether or not to do (or continue) some program that provides aid or assistance, there are a lot of people who focus primarily on whether or not it is possible to cheat the system. It doesn't matter to them if 99 out of 100 people getting the aid are following the rules and having their lives greatly improved (and indirectly improving things for the country as a whole). It is that 1 out of 100 who gets aid who did not qualify that is all they see. > If they earn no taxable income here, they never have to pay it back no matter how much they earn overseas. I can't really think of an easy way to resolve this because it's impossible to garnish income from another country. This should be solvable. Change the law so that payment is owed on foreign income, even if that income is not taxable in Australia, and make it so that the Australian government can bring a civil suit for a monetary judgement against those who do not pay. I believe (but someone should check me on this) that at least in the US, Australia could enforce that judgement. The US would recognize the Australian court's jurisdiction (assuming the defendant is still an Australian citizen), and would recognize Australia's right to tax foreign income. That, combined with whatever treaties I am almost certain the US and Australia have, should be enough for the US to consider the judgement enforceable, and to enforce it for Australia. My recollection is that due to various treaties between most pairs of first world countries, escaping debt in one by going to another is fairly difficult, unless the debt in the first involved something that is morally frowned upon in the second. E.g., if you owed a pimp for prostitution services in some country where prostitution is legal, countries where prostitution is not legal might not recognize this even if they otherwise recognize debts from the first country.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
lysium 13y ago
I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system. "Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k. If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?
- frogpelt 13y ago
  Why do people not understand that many people are poor not because they were born into something less than a utopia but because they are lazy or happy that way or they make bad decisions or are just plain ignorant? Have you once stopped to consider that there may not be anything close to a perfect system for lifting people out of poverty? Perhaps a system that provides possibility that requires loads of effort to take advantage of is the best that can be done. A country simply cannot pay for the aggregation of "necessities" that the populace dreams up.
  - lysium 13y ago
    I was not talking about poverty or who's paying what. I'm just saying that putting economic burdens on higher education is not a wise decision for a country that wants to advance technologically or academically. With respect to who's paying what: I think the country has way enough money, the question is "just" on what do you want to spend it.
  - wjk 13y ago
    In a lot of first world countries people get PAID to go to university. Expecting 17-18 year old's who finished high school to have tens of thousands of dollars to be able to go to good universities is beyond stupid.
    - frogpelt 13y ago
      You should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-Education-Scholarships-Mooching/dp/1591842980 http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-Education-Schola...

by NamTaf 13y ago

applecore 13y ago

The U.S. has a really helpful student loan repayment program — and no one's using it: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-07/the-u-dot-s-dot-has-a-really-helpful-student-loan-repayment-program-and-no-ones-using-it http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-07/the-u-dot-s-...

ChuckMcM 13y ago
Which isn't highlighted because the narrative that is not "Hey we are helping people get college educations" the narrative is "Rich people can afford to send their kids to school, poor people can't, its increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots." That second narrative gets you rage views and votes for office, pretty much without regard with evidence to the contrary. Students can get a college degree at state schools for about the same cost as buying a new car, and on much more favorable loan terms. That said, there are lots of ways we could improve how we grant student aid, in my last letter to my Senators I suggested that providing need-blind aid for STEM degrees (Creating in demand workers and part of the alleged worker shortage) would serve the double benefit of both getting people college degrees, and getting employers the legal resident college graduates they seem to so urgently desire. It is a simple idea but if you subscribe to the idea that tax payer funds should be allocated for the improvement of the citizenry and society, having a larger qualified worker pool seems to meet that requirement.

vertis 13y ago

HECS is amazing. I would never have been able to afford university without it. Mine has long since been paid back (a painless process).

dorian-graph 13y ago

Yup, HECS is wonderful. I'm a current engineering student and it's offloaded a major concern from my mind about university. University used to be free in Australia a few decades ago, I believe. I think there IS a limit on how long studies go. When I changed degrees I remember one of the Centrelink mentioning something graduation date and if it's within a range—I should check. Also, they've proposed to remove the HECS-HELP discounts[1]. [1]: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/news/pages/changes-to-hecs-help-discounts-and-voluntary-repayment-bonus http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/news/pages/chang...

NamTaf 13y ago
I thought there was too, but apparently that was removed as of 01/01/12. Quoth a big PDF [1]: "As of 1 January 2012, there is no limit to the amount of study you can undertake in a CSP. However, it is important to note that some approved providers may have academic probation procedures in place and if you are not progressing satisfactorily in your course, your enrolment may be cancelled." [1]: http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/StudyAssist/HelpfulResources/Documents/CSS%20and%20HECS-HELP%20information%20for%202013.pdf http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/StudyAssist/HelpfulResources... (page 14 of the PDF file, page 7 shown in the booklet corner)

anologwintermut 13y ago

HECS is nice, I knew a number of Aussie engineers at Microsoft who got a good education and as you said, fled the country. Low interest loans are not the worst idea if people actually stop to ask themselves if their major will provide the enough income to pay them back. They avoid the flee the jurisdiction problem an the waste money on a useless major problem. Its reasonably rational to pay the money to go to Stanford for CS even if you pair full freight. It's probably not economically rational to do so for sociology. The problem of course, in the US, is that no one asked themselves if they could afford to pay back the loans given what they intended to do. Its some mass collective delusion. The other problem, is that every time they up the amount for federal student loans, universities up their tuition to match.

roskilli 13y ago
I'm an Australian ex-patriot who went straight to Microsoft after study and although myself and other friends who did the same aren't paying back their HECS now we all agree in the mid-to-late future when we return to Australia we will pay our HECS in full and likely later than others so with a little more interest too. Honestly I think the brain drain is the biggest downside to Australians moving overseas after higher education, it's hard for me to move back after seeing the opportunities here.

AlexDanger 13y ago

> The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt then flee the country. Do you have any stats on how much HECS is lost in this manner? I've not heard of this being a big problem. One of my friends is in this category - he got a PHD scholarship at a top institution in the UK and isnt likely to return to Australia anytime soon. But I'd have thought the overall impact of brain drain (Australia is generally not a good place for top end R&D [1][2]) would have a far greater impact on Australia's future than an unpaid $30k HECS debt. That all said, HECS is an amazing system and we are so lucky to have it here. I remember as a teenager when I first learnt that you had to pay upfront to go to college in the USA. I thought it was bullshit. What happens if you're poor? It seemed so ridiculously unfair that I thought it must be false. Oh the innocence of youth. edit: urgh, sorry about the paywall. Go via google and you'll bypass it. [1]: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/universities-in-top-500-leiden-research-ranking/story-e6frgcjx-1226623776420 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/universitie... [2]: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/brain-drain-must-be-halted-says-telstra-boss-david-thodey/story-e6frgakx-1226667127562 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/brain-drain-mu...

NamTaf 13y ago
I don't, but I'd love to see some if anyone has any. The problem is that because the only interest on the loan is CPI, the HECS system is essentially a fixed pool of money that is temporary loaned to students then paid back, real-dollar for real-dollar. By not paying it back, it's essentially 1 student's volume of study that is lost out of that pool. I don't know how significant that 'leak rate' is though, so I can't put a figure on whether it's stressing the funds or not.
- AlexDanger 13y ago
  The only reason I suspect its not a big problem is neither political party seem to be whining about it. Perhaps the boom economy over the last few years has hidden the problem. Graduates from IT/Engineering/Geology had a very good chance of skyrocketing into a top income bracket after only 1-2 years on the job. In terms of NPV this accelerated repayment makes the pool of money larger. And vice versa in a slow economy. I'm quite certain the previous generation didn't see their income climb so fast relative to their years of experience.

SCdF 13y ago

New Zealand has a similar system. All kiwis can get a student loan, which you can put class fees, some living costs and a few other expenses under. You can also apply for a student allowance which you don't have to pay back, but you have to qualify (e.g. you and your family are poor). With the student loan, it's a no interest loan as long as you're in the country. If you leave it defaults to a normal loan (not sure the % is). While you're working and make over a certain minimal amount the govt takes 10% of your income to pay it off. I'm not sure how much it is now, but I graduated in 2006 with a BSc in CS and my loan was somewhere around 21k.

AlexDanger 13y ago
Australia has the same full-time study allowance (Youth Allowance). When I was at uni it was about $350 a fortnight. Enough money for rent in a share house, food, a carton of cheap beer and perhaps some petrol. You could survive on it if you were frugal. The weirdest part was the means testing to make sure you were 'independent' and hence eligible to recieve the government money regardless of your parents assets. My parents werent poor but they were in no position to pay my living expenses whilst I went to uni. Proving you were independent involved showing you'd worked full time for over a year or earnt a massive amount of money in a short period of time (I cant remember exactly but it was around $15k). I worked 12 hour days at a factory over the summer break for 2 and a half months and with some other part time work managed to meet the income requirements. I started uni with a very healthy bank account. I just thought it was somewhat weird that I had to work so hard and earn so much money...so I was eligible for the government to give me more money.

vacri 13y ago

There was even a golden period, '84 - '88, where it was entirely free to get a degree in Australia. Australia needs something like HECS to encourage skills. Even with the loss of those going overseas, to support a service-based economy, it's still necessary to maintain domestic skills. The US is less in need - it is where the brain-drain of the world goes - which may be why their government feels less of the pinch.

hef19898 13y ago
In germany most degrees are free, besides somtimes a 500,- € or so fee per semester. Excetions are MBAs and certain part-time studies. I'll start a Master of Business Administration and Engineering in Octobre that costs a neat 104,- Euro per year.
- vacri 13y ago
  That's outstanding and to be encouraged, but I do think that HECS is an elegant solution - you're only eligible to pay back your studies when your salary rises above a mediocre level. Australians can also get a small stipend to live on during their undergraduate degree (I think Germany does this as well, but I'm not sure).
  - hef19898 13y ago
    Yes, we have something called Bafoeg (great german abbriviation for a law ;-)). It's valid for all forms of education (most of them, apparently there's a white list), given you're total income and assets are below a certain threshold. And yes, these systems are really nice for students with low income or wealth. They open up opportunities and provide education to more people, which is always good I think.

dools 13y ago

Another advantage to paying full fees (and criticism of the HECS system) is that the score required to get into most courses is lower for full fee paying students. This is simply because there is less competition for those places but it does essentially mean that stupid rich kids can get into uni ahead of poor kids who are less stupid. And not only do we have HECS, but we have Youth Allowance which gives you money while you're studying, to live on. It's similar to the case described in this article, though: if you earn over a certain amount your Youth Allowance is reduced but it's clearly stated in the rules how it works so most students get jobs at small restaurants where they get paid under the table. Works out pretty well.

danjayh 13y ago
So you freely admit that most students defraud the system, yet you still consider it the case that it "works out pretty well"?
- emikulic 13y ago
  I think you just proved tzs's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6177335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6177335
- dools 13y ago
  Judging by how freakin sweet living in Australia is I'd say it's working pretty well.

hef19898 13y ago

One of my friends back at university had his satae allowance reduced after his father retired and earned less than before. The reason was that now he fell into a higher category of a lower income bracket instead of the lower one of the higher bracket. Nice logic. Another one had to fight off fraud charges after she declared a bank account her grandmother had created in her name over a decade ago she didn't know about before. That, and she lost a huge chunk of the allowance, too.

tzs 13y ago

> The major criticism of the system is that students can just incur this debt then flee the country. That would be the big roadblock to implementing something like that in the US. In the US, when evaluating whether or not to do (or continue) some program that provides aid or assistance, there are a lot of people who focus primarily on whether or not it is possible to cheat the system. It doesn't matter to them if 99 out of 100 people getting the aid are following the rules and having their lives greatly improved (and indirectly improving things for the country as a whole). It is that 1 out of 100 who gets aid who did not qualify that is all they see. > If they earn no taxable income here, they never have to pay it back no matter how much they earn overseas. I can't really think of an easy way to resolve this because it's impossible to garnish income from another country. This should be solvable. Change the law so that payment is owed on foreign income, even if that income is not taxable in Australia, and make it so that the Australian government can bring a civil suit for a monetary judgement against those who do not pay. I believe (but someone should check me on this) that at least in the US, Australia could enforce that judgement. The US would recognize the Australian court's jurisdiction (assuming the defendant is still an Australian citizen), and would recognize Australia's right to tax foreign income. That, combined with whatever treaties I am almost certain the US and Australia have, should be enough for the US to consider the judgement enforceable, and to enforce it for Australia. My recollection is that due to various treaties between most pairs of first world countries, escaping debt in one by going to another is fairly difficult, unless the debt in the first involved something that is morally frowned upon in the second. E.g., if you owed a pimp for prostitution services in some country where prostitution is legal, countries where prostitution is not legal might not recognize this even if they otherwise recognize debts from the first country.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

lysium 13y ago

I don't see how HECS is a lot better than the US system. "Poor" people still have to pay 10% (accumulated) interest on the loan (it does not matter if the interest is called 'discount') and you still leave the system with a loan of $18-30k. If a country wants to advance technologically or academically, it should have cost-free universities like there are cost-free schools. Why do people not understand that?

frogpelt 13y ago
Why do people not understand that many people are poor not because they were born into something less than a utopia but because they are lazy or happy that way or they make bad decisions or are just plain ignorant? Have you once stopped to consider that there may not be anything close to a perfect system for lifting people out of poverty? Perhaps a system that provides possibility that requires loads of effort to take advantage of is the best that can be done. A country simply cannot pay for the aggregation of "necessities" that the populace dreams up.
- lysium 13y ago
  I was not talking about poverty or who's paying what. I'm just saying that putting economic burdens on higher education is not a wise decision for a country that wants to advance technologically or academically. With respect to who's paying what: I think the country has way enough money, the question is "just" on what do you want to spend it.
- wjk 13y ago
  In a lot of first world countries people get PAID to go to university. Expecting 17-18 year old's who finished high school to have tens of thousands of dollars to be able to go to good universities is beyond stupid.
  - frogpelt 13y ago
    You should read this book: http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-Education-Scholarships-Mooching/dp/1591842980 http://www.amazon.com/Debt-Free-Outstanding-Education-Schola...