4 ms·

This argument is made constantly with hybrids and electric vehicles. Yet it is not made for any other vehicle that isn't the most economical option, so it sound

This argument is made constantly with hybrids and electric vehicles. Yet it is not made for any other vehicle that isn't the most economical option, so it sounds like a double standard to me. I mean, if you look at what's on the road, you'll see a lot of cars that are more expensive than what could do the same job. Some people even pay extra for fancy wheels, sunroofs, bigger engines (which cost more in fuel), cosmetic modifications, etc. So either we need to judge all vehicles purely on economics, or we should admit that car buyers are looking for other things than purely functional transportation at the lowest cost.

benajnim 13y ago
Having worked in deep in the marketing machinery on behalf of big car companies, my take-away is automobile buying decisions are one of the most irrational decisions a person can make. So often, people will purchase a car to address "edge use cases" (e.g. pulling a boat) and most of the time a more economical car combined with renting a vehicle for those edge cases is cheaper. Oh and each model of vehicle has a target demographic, and you may notice the marketing of any given model targets the lifestyle of the buyer. Young, hip and urban? Hard-working man's man? Eco-concious? A car for every lifestyle.
- nawitus 13y ago
  Cars are often used to increase social status, and that's not exactly irrational.
- nobodysfool 13y ago
  I hear you. I pointed out a nissan leaf to my wife and she was like 'what if we want to go on a vacation?' 'what if we have two more kids?' we wouldn't be able to fit our luggage or go farther than 100 miles away from home! I did mention that in those times which would be rare, we could rent a vehicle with enough space, but she was not having it.
sliverstorm 13y ago
The argument is based on an assumption that if you are buying electric/hybrid, your primary goal is to save money through lower fuel costs. That assumption is what you should focus on.
- koblenski 13y ago
  What if your primary goal is to reduce or eliminate gas consumption at any cost? I would think that would be much more likely because most electrics/hybrids are priced to break even at around 120,000 miles with comparable gas-fueled cars. Quite a long time to wait for a payout.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    Then the assumption is wrong. I'm not arguing anything; I'm trying to point out that the assumption is the source of disagreement, rather than the argument being wrong-headed.
    - koblenski 13y ago
      Got it. Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment.
- MikeCapone 13y ago
  It's one of many possible reasons, but certainly not the only one. And any buying decision is probably made because of a bunch of different factors (the ratios being different for each person). Tesla's selling all the electric cars they're making, certainly not only because the people who buy them are saving money on gas.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    It's one of many possible reasons, but certainly not the only one. Of course! But it's the assumption that is made. It's good to remember to check the assumptions people are making.
IanDrake 13y ago
I'm talking about equivalents. Same size, same age, similar options, etc... For instance, I had a Prius and put 120K miles on it in 5 years. If I recall correctly, compared to a similarly outfitted Camry, I saved thousands in TCO in 5 years. This is in the economy car class, which means people are usually looking for economy. If it were a sports car, we'd maximize for performance.
- koblenski 13y ago
  I calculated that a Leaf should break even with a Prius at about 120k miles as well. Of course, that was the 2012 Leaf, which was $4,000 more than it is now, and less efficient. Now you can get a 2013 Leaf S for $21k after government rebate, which is less than you can get a Prius II for, so you break even immediately. Anyway, it's true that it would take me ~20 years to break even with the 2012 Leaf, but I wasn't optimizing for economy. I was optimizing for the environment.

benajnim 13y ago

Having worked in deep in the marketing machinery on behalf of big car companies, my take-away is automobile buying decisions are one of the most irrational decisions a person can make. So often, people will purchase a car to address "edge use cases" (e.g. pulling a boat) and most of the time a more economical car combined with renting a vehicle for those edge cases is cheaper. Oh and each model of vehicle has a target demographic, and you may notice the marketing of any given model targets the lifestyle of the buyer. Young, hip and urban? Hard-working man's man? Eco-concious? A car for every lifestyle.

nawitus 13y ago
Cars are often used to increase social status, and that's not exactly irrational.
nobodysfool 13y ago
I hear you. I pointed out a nissan leaf to my wife and she was like 'what if we want to go on a vacation?' 'what if we have two more kids?' we wouldn't be able to fit our luggage or go farther than 100 miles away from home! I did mention that in those times which would be rare, we could rent a vehicle with enough space, but she was not having it.

sliverstorm 13y ago

The argument is based on an assumption that if you are buying electric/hybrid, your primary goal is to save money through lower fuel costs. That assumption is what you should focus on.

koblenski 13y ago
What if your primary goal is to reduce or eliminate gas consumption at any cost? I would think that would be much more likely because most electrics/hybrids are priced to break even at around 120,000 miles with comparable gas-fueled cars. Quite a long time to wait for a payout.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  Then the assumption is wrong. I'm not arguing anything; I'm trying to point out that the assumption is the source of disagreement, rather than the argument being wrong-headed.
  - koblenski 13y ago
    Got it. Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment.
MikeCapone 13y ago
It's one of many possible reasons, but certainly not the only one. And any buying decision is probably made because of a bunch of different factors (the ratios being different for each person). Tesla's selling all the electric cars they're making, certainly not only because the people who buy them are saving money on gas.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  It's one of many possible reasons, but certainly not the only one. Of course! But it's the assumption that is made. It's good to remember to check the assumptions people are making.

IanDrake 13y ago

I'm talking about equivalents. Same size, same age, similar options, etc... For instance, I had a Prius and put 120K miles on it in 5 years. If I recall correctly, compared to a similarly outfitted Camry, I saved thousands in TCO in 5 years. This is in the economy car class, which means people are usually looking for economy. If it were a sports car, we'd maximize for performance.

koblenski 13y ago
I calculated that a Leaf should break even with a Prius at about 120k miles as well. Of course, that was the 2012 Leaf, which was $4,000 more than it is now, and less efficient. Now you can get a 2013 Leaf S for $21k after government rebate, which is less than you can get a Prius II for, so you break even immediately. Anyway, it's true that it would take me ~20 years to break even with the 2012 Leaf, but I wasn't optimizing for economy. I was optimizing for the environment.