4 ms·

The problem with "Real change starts at X" statements is that they necessarily handwave around the circularity of the problems we face. We can't get better pol

The problem with "Real change starts at X" statements is that they necessarily handwave around the circularity of the problems we face. We can't get better policies until we elect better parties, but we can't elect better parties until we address campaign finance and fix the electoral system, but we can't address campaign finance and fix the electoral system until we elect better parties willing to pass better policies. And the merry-go-round goes on and on.

korethr 13y ago
Indeed, bootstrapping is a tricky problem, and in more fields than just computers and tech. But bootstrapping is not an impossible problem to solve. Machinists and toolmakers first build crude tools, which in turn allow them to build better tools than they could with just their bare hands and wit. A hacker trying to write a self-hosting compiler in a high level language first starts with another compiler or another language to build the first iteration of his compiler. The Linux kernel can use an initramfs to set up a userspace and run the tools needed to...set up userspace. So bootstrapping is not an impossible problem to solve. What makes politics different that an improvement in politics can't be bootstrapped?
AnthonyMouse 13y ago
>We can't get better policies until we elect better parties, but we can't elect better parties until we address campaign finance and fix the electoral system, but we can't address campaign finance and fix the electoral system until we elect better parties willing to pass better policies. And the merry-go-round goes on and on. So you have to pick one and fix it. It's an engineering problem. So for example, you have to fix campaign finance. The people in Washington aren't going to fix campaign finance in Washington because the system that exists is the one that got them elected. Ditto for the people in Sacramento, Albany, etc. But wait, you can have Sacramento and Albany fund the federal campaigns of Senators running in California and New York (and so on). State Senators don't get money from K Street, they get money from an entirely different set of lobbyists, so you can get the bills through by taking advantage of the regional weakness of the specific opponents. And then do it the other way around and have the federal government pass a national campaign finance bill for state-level offices. That is obviously not a trivial undertaking, but we can't jut say "damn it, we're stuck in a cycle" and throw up our hands or it'll never get fixed.
- RyanMcGreal 13y ago
  I don't mean to suggest there's nothing people can do. However, it's facile and unhelpful to suggest that this is a simple engineering problem. The reason campaign finance is hard to fix is that the people who have the power to fix it are the very same people who benefit the most from the current system, i.e. the people who are most effective at securing the financing of wealthy benefactors. That's a human problem, not an engineering problem. It can still be solved, but it won't be solved with an engineering approach.
r0s 13y ago
See Bush vs. Gore in 2000. How many millions of voters thought the Democrats were so conservative they went green? After the dust settles suddenly Obama has a chance to compete with the rich old white guys. Change only comes from outside pressure. I'm proud to vote against the status quo.

korethr 13y ago

Indeed, bootstrapping is a tricky problem, and in more fields than just computers and tech. But bootstrapping is not an impossible problem to solve. Machinists and toolmakers first build crude tools, which in turn allow them to build better tools than they could with just their bare hands and wit. A hacker trying to write a self-hosting compiler in a high level language first starts with another compiler or another language to build the first iteration of his compiler. The Linux kernel can use an initramfs to set up a userspace and run the tools needed to...set up userspace. So bootstrapping is not an impossible problem to solve. What makes politics different that an improvement in politics can't be bootstrapped?

AnthonyMouse 13y ago

>We can't get better policies until we elect better parties, but we can't elect better parties until we address campaign finance and fix the electoral system, but we can't address campaign finance and fix the electoral system until we elect better parties willing to pass better policies. And the merry-go-round goes on and on. So you have to pick one and fix it. It's an engineering problem. So for example, you have to fix campaign finance. The people in Washington aren't going to fix campaign finance in Washington because the system that exists is the one that got them elected. Ditto for the people in Sacramento, Albany, etc. But wait, you can have Sacramento and Albany fund the federal campaigns of Senators running in California and New York (and so on). State Senators don't get money from K Street, they get money from an entirely different set of lobbyists, so you can get the bills through by taking advantage of the regional weakness of the specific opponents. And then do it the other way around and have the federal government pass a national campaign finance bill for state-level offices. That is obviously not a trivial undertaking, but we can't jut say "damn it, we're stuck in a cycle" and throw up our hands or it'll never get fixed.

RyanMcGreal 13y ago
I don't mean to suggest there's nothing people can do. However, it's facile and unhelpful to suggest that this is a simple engineering problem. The reason campaign finance is hard to fix is that the people who have the power to fix it are the very same people who benefit the most from the current system, i.e. the people who are most effective at securing the financing of wealthy benefactors. That's a human problem, not an engineering problem. It can still be solved, but it won't be solved with an engineering approach.

r0s 13y ago

See Bush vs. Gore in 2000. How many millions of voters thought the Democrats were so conservative they went green? After the dust settles suddenly Obama has a chance to compete with the rich old white guys. Change only comes from outside pressure. I'm proud to vote against the status quo.