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So it's a pretty good product hamstrung by a shoddy dealer network/deployment plan(incompetence, arbitrary rules for purchase). This seems to be a trend... A c

So it's a pretty good product hamstrung by a shoddy dealer network/deployment plan(incompetence, arbitrary rules for purchase). This seems to be a trend... A couple weeks ago, after months of research, I decided to buy a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. I went to my local Jeep dealer and took a test drive. The sales guy was fine. It's always kind of annoying when you know more about the vehicle than the person assisting you, but this is mostly par for the course, and he was polite enough. So then we get back to the dealership and it's instantly good cop/bad cop time. I was accosted by a close talker with a fake tan and gold jewelry giving me a hard sell and telling me that he could definitely work something out for me today, while the other guy apologized for him interrupting us. This is a $40,000 vehicle. It's not an impulsive purchase and I was there for a test drive, which they knew. There was zero chance of me buying a car that day for circumstances that had nothing to do with me or them. Anyway, it was a stereotypical scene from there. After 10 minutes of being polite, but firm. I had to physically walk out of the place while they were still talking to me, trying to make a sale. I felt rude, but what else could I have done. I'd still be there if I hadn't. How is this good business? It must be, because I've purchased 5 vehicles (different brands, different geographic areas) in my life and this experience has been about the same for 4 of them. The 5th was a great experience I had with a VW salesman. Even so, his finance guy was rude and tried to screw me over with nonsensical add-ons and a hidden fee that he himself was "surprised" to see in the paperwork when I pointed them out. WTF? The conversation was also full of obsequious fawning BS like, "Wow, I've never seen one go for this low before!" It was very strange. I've been following the Tesla fight against the regulatory capture that car dealerships have implemented. I hope the dealers get buried. Why can't I go online and order the Jeep (or whatever else) I want and have it delivered or pick it up from a non-jackass? Anyway. I'll be buying a used, low mileage Jeep from Carmax. They have fixed pricing and I can view their entire nationwide inventory in detail on their websites. I wish the car manufacturers would get with it. (This is not an ad for Carmax. They are the least of many evils in this situation.)

ubercore 13y ago
We had the same experience at a VW dealer. The salesperson was nice, let us take a nice long test drive, and worked out a reasonable deal for us with little pressure. As soon as we went to the finance side, though (we used VW credit), it turned into Glengarry Glen Ross. Additional warranty, extra fees, extra maintenance plans, and on and on. We sat in what felt like an interrogation room saying "no, thank you" for 30 minutes before we could walk out of there.
- ericabiz 13y ago
  The finance guys are always the worst. (See my above post; as a hobby, I help friends negotiate on cars.) Here is what I do: I always scout for the finance guy beforehand, and let him know I'm going to say no to everything. They always laugh and say, "Okay, but you know I have to ask you this stuff anyway." So I sit down in the finance room and as he's printing out the "long sheet" I just look him in the eye and say "No" before he even says anything. He'll laugh again but then he'll go through it really fast for you. I have done this countless times and it always works well. P.S. Never buy an extended warranty. Invest that money instead and use it if you need to buy parts later. They are a ripoff and the finance guys know it. If you do feel a great need to give the dealership extra money, know this: The fees, like everything else, are negotiable.
  - koblenski 13y ago
    I actually did buy an extended warranty for our Prius. It was a lease, and the warranty then covered the car to the end of the lease. On top of that, it covered all oil changes and maintenance checkups listed in the maintenance schedule. I ran the numbers and found that it was basically the same cost as paying for that maintenance directly, but this way the cost was rolled into the lease payments. I figured it was a clear win for the piece of mind and easier budgeting. Of course, the costs could vary, so always run the numbers.
    - michael_h 13y ago
      When you ran the numbers, were you pricing things out based on how much the dealership charges? I change my own oil for about US$18, but the dealership charges US$342 (an extreme example I admit).
      - koblenski 13y ago
        Wow, I'll say that's extreme, bordering on criminal. Do they wipe down the oil lines with a Q-tip, or something? I went with the dealership charges. Oil changes were US$20-25 and they top off all fluids and tires and give you a free car wash. I can't remember the other maintenance costs off hand, but they came really close to the US$650 for the extended warranty.
ericabiz 13y ago
It's a trend with certain dealerships. In my experience, the low-end car companies tend to do this more often. As a hobby, I help friends buy/negotiate cars, so I've had experience with several dealerships. Here's my list from memory: Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge: Horrendous. I have never found a dealership I like in this chain. Nissan: Hit or miss. One dealership was fantastic (San Diego) and one I went to was the awful "hard sell" place. Mazda: Every one I've been to has been good save for one (unfortunately, that one is the closest to where I now live in Austin, TX.) If you live in Austin and want a Mazda, go to the dealership on the south side. They will literally throw you the keys and let you test-drive any of their cars. Acura: Good overall, though have not been impressed with the salespeople themselves. BMW/Mini, Lexus, Mercedes/Smart, Porsche: Have always had good experiences with these dealerships. One caveat: My fiance has a BMW and we bought it certified used, and it didn't come with a manual. A year later, despite multiple requests, we still don't have a manual. The sales experience was good, however. Of all of the above, Lexus has been the most consistently awesome. I've been to 4 different dealerships and all were extremely pleasant. Of note: Two dealerships have offered me jobs as a car saleswoman after I negotiated with them for friends.
- schreiaj 13y ago
  Seconding BMW/Mini - I've now leased two cars from them and had a pleasant experience both times. VW - I won't touch, last time I was in one I was told "we don't have time to deal with you today" when there was nobody else in the dealership. GM - Wouldn't talk to me until they ran a credit check. Afterwards were very pushy about me buying the car that day. Subaru - Was hesitant to talk to me until they'd determined I COULD afford the car. Honda - poor kid knew nothing about cars. No, when someone says "I drive a Mini, I'm looking for something small but not quite as small" you don't suggest an Accord.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  I've had pretty good experiences with Toyota, which jives with your experiences with Lexus, as they are part of Toyota.
  - MartinCron 13y ago
sghill 13y ago
> Why can't I go online and order the Jeep (or whatever else) I want and have it delivered or pick it up from a non-jackass? True, you can't go to Amazon Cars or equivalent, but there are options. Have you tried the internet sales department? Edmund's called it "a valuable time- and money-saver."[1] > I wish the car manufacturers would get with it. It's not like they haven't tried to make the buying experience more pleasant. Saturn was doing no-haggle pricing as early as 1990[2]. Scion is doing it today[3]. Gut feel is that the buying experience just isn't that important to most people with durable goods. The car is what brings us into dealerships, not the sales staff. [1]: http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-to-get-an-internet-price-quote-for-a-car.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-to-get-an-internet-pri... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation#1990.E2.80.932000:_.22A_new_kind_of_car_company.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation#1990.E2.80.... [3]: http://www.scion.com/buy/pure_price/ http://www.scion.com/buy/pure_price/
- gcb0 13y ago
  Screw going to amazon et al to buy anything that changes as constantly as a car. or a cellphone. I just ordered 3 kindles. I'm pretty sure i will go trhu the hassle of returning 2. but i couldn't see them in person anywhere! the amazon model is perfect for 'permanent' items. such as book and commodity electronics. I bet my right arm that you wouldn't ever buy a car from amazon if you couldn't test drive it at the local shoddy dealer.
  - koblenski 13y ago
    I've seen Kindles of all types at most Best-Buys and Targets in my area.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - sghill 13y ago
    > Screw going to amazon et al to buy anything that changes as constantly as a car. or a cellphone. You've made it clear you're a person who requires extensive test-driving. Amazon's cell phone business doesn't seem to be hurting. I've ordered my last two cell phones online sight-unseen. Same for recent laptops and a Nook. I'll take the uncertainty of holding a modern device over the sales staff. > I bet my right arm that you wouldn't ever buy a car from amazon if you couldn't test drive it at the local shoddy dealer. The average car age in the US is now 11.4 years old[1]. My car will likely be 15 before I get another one. In VW's terms, that's at least three generations of progress. I'm buying a car for a decade, and none of the problems that come up in a decade will be revealed by a test drive. Regardless, I merely agreed it wasn't currently an option and the parent may have a better experience with the internet sales department of his or her local dealerships. [1]: http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/average-age-of-cars-in-us-jumps-to-record-high-of-114-years.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/average-age-of-cars-in-us-ju...
MrFoof 13y ago
I hate to say it, but this kind of service is what drove me from mainstream brands altogether. * Wanted to buy a Ford Boss 302 Mustang. $43,000 MSRP car advertised as track-ready. Dealer said he wanted to mark up the car $25,000, and required that $25,000 as a deposit. I said for that kind of money I'd buy a Porsche Boxster S, and walked out. I found the experience similar at other dealerships. * Got some calls the next year about the Boss 302. They were willing to sell them at MSRP. I can test drive it right? Nope. How about with a $20,000 refundable security deposit to show I have the cash -- can I drive it then? Nope. I told them I'm not buying a car that will see track duty unless I can drive it. Again, said I'd buy a Porsche. * Went to Porsche dealerships. Interested in a Boxster S? Well, let's take out a Boxster first to see if that might be enough power, since it'd save you money. Not enough torque? Awesome, let's go wring the neck of a Boxster S _for an hour_. You like it? Fantastic. Hey, here's some free lunch. Not looking to purchase today? No problem, you come back in February when you have the down payment you want saved up and we'll get an order going for you. We'll mail you some goodies too. Needless to say, dealer gets my deposit ($5K, same as it'd be for a 911 Turbo S) in February to start the order.
- sukuriant 13y ago
  Did it look like you have money and were you in a place where people that look like you have money? As an aside, the dealers with the higher echelon cars that I've been to, even just wandering around, seem to be more awesome people. I'm especially talking about audi (used), bmw (new and used), Lamborghini (new)). Even the Subaru dealer I went to with clear motive to just test drive was very polite. Direct, but polite, and that's all I could ask for.
  - MrFoof 13y ago
    I wear boat shots, a nice pair of Levis and a nice polo. Same as I always wear. Audi and BMW have specifically treated me like a piece of crap every time I've stepped into their showroom (maybe three times each) for the past 15 years. Nowadays I don't set foot in either because they no longer sell cars I'm interested in (R8 a bit too dear for my budget).
  - 13y ago
mcguire 13y ago
The last time I was in the market for a car, from my own personal experience, given that I have no legitimate data, the prices at Carmax seemed to be roughly equivalent to the asking price for comparable vehicles at most used car dealers. I suspect you could get a similar purchasing experience from most dealers by simply not negotiating.
gcb0 13y ago
You would be impressed how many people does impulses buys of $40k cars.

ubercore 13y ago

We had the same experience at a VW dealer. The salesperson was nice, let us take a nice long test drive, and worked out a reasonable deal for us with little pressure. As soon as we went to the finance side, though (we used VW credit), it turned into Glengarry Glen Ross. Additional warranty, extra fees, extra maintenance plans, and on and on. We sat in what felt like an interrogation room saying "no, thank you" for 30 minutes before we could walk out of there.

ericabiz 13y ago
The finance guys are always the worst. (See my above post; as a hobby, I help friends negotiate on cars.) Here is what I do: I always scout for the finance guy beforehand, and let him know I'm going to say no to everything. They always laugh and say, "Okay, but you know I have to ask you this stuff anyway." So I sit down in the finance room and as he's printing out the "long sheet" I just look him in the eye and say "No" before he even says anything. He'll laugh again but then he'll go through it really fast for you. I have done this countless times and it always works well. P.S. Never buy an extended warranty. Invest that money instead and use it if you need to buy parts later. They are a ripoff and the finance guys know it. If you do feel a great need to give the dealership extra money, know this: The fees, like everything else, are negotiable.
- koblenski 13y ago
  I actually did buy an extended warranty for our Prius. It was a lease, and the warranty then covered the car to the end of the lease. On top of that, it covered all oil changes and maintenance checkups listed in the maintenance schedule. I ran the numbers and found that it was basically the same cost as paying for that maintenance directly, but this way the cost was rolled into the lease payments. I figured it was a clear win for the piece of mind and easier budgeting. Of course, the costs could vary, so always run the numbers.
  - michael_h 13y ago
    When you ran the numbers, were you pricing things out based on how much the dealership charges? I change my own oil for about US$18, but the dealership charges US$342 (an extreme example I admit).
    - koblenski 13y ago
      Wow, I'll say that's extreme, bordering on criminal. Do they wipe down the oil lines with a Q-tip, or something? I went with the dealership charges. Oil changes were US$20-25 and they top off all fluids and tires and give you a free car wash. I can't remember the other maintenance costs off hand, but they came really close to the US$650 for the extended warranty.

ericabiz 13y ago

It's a trend with certain dealerships. In my experience, the low-end car companies tend to do this more often. As a hobby, I help friends buy/negotiate cars, so I've had experience with several dealerships. Here's my list from memory: Chrysler/Jeep/Dodge: Horrendous. I have never found a dealership I like in this chain. Nissan: Hit or miss. One dealership was fantastic (San Diego) and one I went to was the awful "hard sell" place. Mazda: Every one I've been to has been good save for one (unfortunately, that one is the closest to where I now live in Austin, TX.) If you live in Austin and want a Mazda, go to the dealership on the south side. They will literally throw you the keys and let you test-drive any of their cars. Acura: Good overall, though have not been impressed with the salespeople themselves. BMW/Mini, Lexus, Mercedes/Smart, Porsche: Have always had good experiences with these dealerships. One caveat: My fiance has a BMW and we bought it certified used, and it didn't come with a manual. A year later, despite multiple requests, we still don't have a manual. The sales experience was good, however. Of all of the above, Lexus has been the most consistently awesome. I've been to 4 different dealerships and all were extremely pleasant. Of note: Two dealerships have offered me jobs as a car saleswoman after I negotiated with them for friends.

schreiaj 13y ago
Seconding BMW/Mini - I've now leased two cars from them and had a pleasant experience both times. VW - I won't touch, last time I was in one I was told "we don't have time to deal with you today" when there was nobody else in the dealership. GM - Wouldn't talk to me until they ran a credit check. Afterwards were very pushy about me buying the car that day. Subaru - Was hesitant to talk to me until they'd determined I COULD afford the car. Honda - poor kid knew nothing about cars. No, when someone says "I drive a Mini, I'm looking for something small but not quite as small" you don't suggest an Accord.
sliverstorm 13y ago
I've had pretty good experiences with Toyota, which jives with your experiences with Lexus, as they are part of Toyota.
- MartinCron 13y ago

sghill 13y ago

> Why can't I go online and order the Jeep (or whatever else) I want and have it delivered or pick it up from a non-jackass? True, you can't go to Amazon Cars or equivalent, but there are options. Have you tried the internet sales department? Edmund's called it "a valuable time- and money-saver."[1] > I wish the car manufacturers would get with it. It's not like they haven't tried to make the buying experience more pleasant. Saturn was doing no-haggle pricing as early as 1990[2]. Scion is doing it today[3]. Gut feel is that the buying experience just isn't that important to most people with durable goods. The car is what brings us into dealerships, not the sales staff. [1]: http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-to-get-an-internet-price-quote-for-a-car.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/how-to-get-an-internet-pri... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation#1990.E2.80.932000:_.22A_new_kind_of_car_company.22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_Corporation#1990.E2.80.... [3]: http://www.scion.com/buy/pure_price/ http://www.scion.com/buy/pure_price/

gcb0 13y ago
Screw going to amazon et al to buy anything that changes as constantly as a car. or a cellphone. I just ordered 3 kindles. I'm pretty sure i will go trhu the hassle of returning 2. but i couldn't see them in person anywhere! the amazon model is perfect for 'permanent' items. such as book and commodity electronics. I bet my right arm that you wouldn't ever buy a car from amazon if you couldn't test drive it at the local shoddy dealer.
- koblenski 13y ago
  I've seen Kindles of all types at most Best-Buys and Targets in my area.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- sghill 13y ago
  > Screw going to amazon et al to buy anything that changes as constantly as a car. or a cellphone. You've made it clear you're a person who requires extensive test-driving. Amazon's cell phone business doesn't seem to be hurting. I've ordered my last two cell phones online sight-unseen. Same for recent laptops and a Nook. I'll take the uncertainty of holding a modern device over the sales staff. > I bet my right arm that you wouldn't ever buy a car from amazon if you couldn't test drive it at the local shoddy dealer. The average car age in the US is now 11.4 years old[1]. My car will likely be 15 before I get another one. In VW's terms, that's at least three generations of progress. I'm buying a car for a decade, and none of the problems that come up in a decade will be revealed by a test drive. Regardless, I merely agreed it wasn't currently an option and the parent may have a better experience with the internet sales department of his or her local dealerships. [1]: http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/average-age-of-cars-in-us-jumps-to-record-high-of-114-years.html http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/average-age-of-cars-in-us-ju...

MrFoof 13y ago

I hate to say it, but this kind of service is what drove me from mainstream brands altogether. * Wanted to buy a Ford Boss 302 Mustang. $43,000 MSRP car advertised as track-ready. Dealer said he wanted to mark up the car $25,000, and required that $25,000 as a deposit. I said for that kind of money I'd buy a Porsche Boxster S, and walked out. I found the experience similar at other dealerships. * Got some calls the next year about the Boss 302. They were willing to sell them at MSRP. I can test drive it right? Nope. How about with a $20,000 refundable security deposit to show I have the cash -- can I drive it then? Nope. I told them I'm not buying a car that will see track duty unless I can drive it. Again, said I'd buy a Porsche. * Went to Porsche dealerships. Interested in a Boxster S? Well, let's take out a Boxster first to see if that might be enough power, since it'd save you money. Not enough torque? Awesome, let's go wring the neck of a Boxster S _for an hour_. You like it? Fantastic. Hey, here's some free lunch. Not looking to purchase today? No problem, you come back in February when you have the down payment you want saved up and we'll get an order going for you. We'll mail you some goodies too. Needless to say, dealer gets my deposit ($5K, same as it'd be for a 911 Turbo S) in February to start the order.

sukuriant 13y ago
Did it look like you have money and were you in a place where people that look like you have money? As an aside, the dealers with the higher echelon cars that I've been to, even just wandering around, seem to be more awesome people. I'm especially talking about audi (used), bmw (new and used), Lamborghini (new)). Even the Subaru dealer I went to with clear motive to just test drive was very polite. Direct, but polite, and that's all I could ask for.
- MrFoof 13y ago
  I wear boat shots, a nice pair of Levis and a nice polo. Same as I always wear. Audi and BMW have specifically treated me like a piece of crap every time I've stepped into their showroom (maybe three times each) for the past 15 years. Nowadays I don't set foot in either because they no longer sell cars I'm interested in (R8 a bit too dear for my budget).
- 13y ago

mcguire 13y ago

The last time I was in the market for a car, from my own personal experience, given that I have no legitimate data, the prices at Carmax seemed to be roughly equivalent to the asking price for comparable vehicles at most used car dealers. I suspect you could get a similar purchasing experience from most dealers by simply not negotiating.

gcb0 13y ago

You would be impressed how many people does impulses buys of $40k cars.