5 ms·

Stealth Startups Are Stupid

87 points by Ataub24 13y ago

amirmc 13y ago
This reminds me of the hilarious "A day in the life of a startup founder" by jgrahamc [1]. It's the first place I learned about double-stealth mode. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4166183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4166183
- igorgue 13y ago
  Obvious troll is obvious?
mattzito 13y ago
I generally agree - but the only thing I'll say to defend stealth startups is that sometimes it makes sense to keep quiet until you have something to show people. Not for competitive reasons, or because you're worried someone's going to steal your idea, but because you want to stop your idea from being judged out of context or before it's ready. Once it's ready (enough) to be shown, at least then people will judge it fully baked, instead of basing their opinion on the elevator pitch.
- Ataub24 13y ago
  It's totally okay to keep quiet about what you are working on- but you typically have a vision or idea of what problem you are trying to tackle. You can just talk about that when people ask you...
ivankirigin 13y ago
Yes. There is a world of difference between talking publicly about your ideas and talking privately. It is incredibly ignorant to assume the person you're talking to is going to somehow hurt your business. Not only that, but you miss the opportunity to get feedback on your idea, making you more likely to fail.
orenbarzilai 13y ago
As some one once said (can't remember who) "stealth mode is for fighter jets not startups"
- moocowduckquack 13y ago
  What about startups building fighter jets?
  - orenbarzilai 13y ago
    regular fighter jets or stealth jets?
Oculus 13y ago
I think their are valid times when stealth can be important. The most prominent example I know of would be Siri. In the words of Adam Cheyer: I'm convinced that staying in stealth mode was critical to our success. He goes on to explain why: We were based on some fairly heavy technologies (natural language understanding, conversational dialog, context, local search, plan-based service delegation, PCI-compliant data stores, machine learning), and it took us two years to go from our initial prototype to something ready to deploy and scale. A few weeks after we launched, Steve Jobs called the office and the rest is history. As a startup, we were potentially competing with large companies with lots of resources (e.g. Google, Microsoft), and we needed a good running head start before anyone knew precisely what we were trying to accomplish. For a more user-facing, social website where getting the right features is important, don't be stealthy, just get it up and iterate (c.f. http://change.org http://change.org). But if you have a technology that takes some time to get right, being stealthy enables you to have buzz when you emerge and the head-start you need to compete with anyone. Here's the link: http://www.quora.com/Stealth-Startups/Is-there-a-single-example-of-a-company-that-started-in-stealth-mode-and-launched-to-success http://www.quora.com/Stealth-Startups/Is-there-a-single-exam...
- Ataub24 13y ago
  interesting. thanks Oculus.
- stonemetal 13y ago
  There is a difference between "Oh I can't talk about it we're in stealth mode" and not running an ad campaign notifying the world of what you plan to do. As a start up Google and MS literally pay no attention to what you are doing. It is only after Apple picked them up that the big G even bothered attempting to put together voice search on android and did it relatively quickly. what benefits did they derive from stealth? None as far as I can tell. Google didn't care about trying to re implement their idea until Apple showed interest and they needed a counter to Apple. As a general rule of thumb no established company is going to steal your startup idea until after you have launched and proved successful, pre-launch they have better things to do. What did they lose by not talking about it? Who knows people around here like to talk about the serendipity of bumping in to the right person while at lunch.
yajoe 13y ago
> If you need to be stealth so you don’t tip off competitors, you need to really re-think if you are building a long-term business... At the end of the day, being a startup in “stealth mode” happens when founders put too much value in ideas, and not execution. May I propose a contrarian narrative? I see experienced founders use the "stealth mode" veil specifically because they are focusing on execution and don't really want to waste time in polite conversation debating the merits of an idea or rehashing a list of competitors. Talking too much about ideas is deleterious to the focus needed for building products. Sometimes the brain needs a break and a person wants to connect with other human beings for something other than work. I'm sorry you weren't able to judge the last 5 people based on their ideas! You found another way, bravo!
- Ataub24 13y ago
  They don't need to tell you the full story. But saying- we are trying to solve how people discover new products that their friends buy. We should have a product out in the next few months. That's a lot better than saying we are stealth. You didn't give away anything. Ya feel me?
  - 3327 13y ago
    Agree perhaps, from a psychological standpoint I say stealth all the time because I am plain sick and tired of telling every person whom inevitably asks the question, "so whats your startup working on". I'd rather think of the code I need to write the next day or just talk about macro economy and other things. My life is 24/7 startup already. And may I add: seasoned entrepreneurs don't ask THAT question they either wait for you do talk about it yourself or don't pester you with it because they have all been there too.
  - cargo8 13y ago
    The problem is the response to that is almost always "Oh you mean like ______?". The answer to that is almost certainly no, but you can't really say or explain why unless you reveal too much about your startup at too early a stage. Then people get the impression you are working on some stupid idea that has already been done. There are a lot of reasons not to reveal what you are working on exactly, but giving the industry isn't necessarily the best thing to do either. A lot of experienced founders will also do this because they don't want wild rumors flying around about what they are building / working on next from a one-liner that they mentioned without wanting or being able to get into the details about it with some stranger.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
bencollier49 13y ago
I'm not sure I wholeheartedly agree with this. Giving potential competitors months of lead time to either clone the USP of a startup or make changes to lessen its impact doesn't seem terribly sensible in a lot of situations.
workbench 13y ago
Don't know why you expected anything else from an "ideas guy"
chmike 13y ago
Of course replying to an inquiry that the project is in stealth mode is like a slap in the face. This can be avoided by using a decoy project. This will be less brutal and will avoid attracting attention. Regarding secrecy, obviously the secret sauce has to be kept secret. But the problem one tries to address can be exposed and will allow to collect new feedback. This is valuable because if the existence and seriousness of the problem you try to address is confirmed you earn a new prospect and a new validation of the pertinence of the project. You may also learn new aspects of the problems or expected solutions you may have initially overlooked.
aclimatt 13y ago
One thing that worries me about "stealth" start-ups is that it implies (not all the time, but often) a lack of market research and validation ahead of time. While there are ways to get potential customers excited about a product and challenge your assumptions without necessarily revealing everything, more often than not, it seems like the majority of the assumptions will not be tested until launch, which ends up being a few hundred thousand (or million) too late. [0][1][2] There are some products that don't necessarily need that level of validation ahead of time. There are some founders who have networks so wide, that they can start with a userbase of 5,000 people regardless of what they build. But for everybody else, proper validation of your assumptions might be the one thing saving your start-up from failure. And not telling anybody about it seems like a pretty easy way to get there. [0] http://www.businessinsider.com/33-startups-that-died-reveal-why-they-failed-2013-6?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/33-startups-that-died-reveal-... [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/03/19/warning-7-steps-to-startup-failure/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/03/19/warning-7-... [2] http://jamesmaskell.co.uk/2013/why-vinetrade-failed/ http://jamesmaskell.co.uk/2013/why-vinetrade-failed/
visarga 13y ago
Overgeneralizations are ...
eladgil 13y ago
I think the value of stealth mode really depends on context. E.g. I think GroupOn's series A created a lot of competition, as VCs all told their portfolio companies to pivot in that direction. http://blog.eladgil.com/2011/04/is-stealth-mode-stupid.html http://blog.eladgil.com/2011/04/is-stealth-mode-stupid.html
threepipeproblm 13y ago
Based on what? Here is an elegant statement of the opposite point of view by Peter Thiel, which includes a coherent argument. http://blakemasters.com/post/22866240816/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-11-notes-essay http://blakemasters.com/post/22866240816/peter-thiels-cs183-...
- gergles 13y ago
  This statement is far from 'elegant', it is tens of thousands of words that ultimately say nothing. The relevant section is 7B, which says that their ultimate success was not keeping a secret!
  - threepipeproblm 13y ago
    No it doesn't. 7b says "The right time to bring people in is rarely at the very beginning, all at once." It also says that whether or not (or to what degree) stealth mode makes sense depends on the environment.
tb303 13y ago
I know of some currently successful companies whose founders used meaningful, honest, yet vague phrases like "we're trying to change the way people ___________". And they did. And I know of about 5x the startups whose founders used the phrase "we're in stealth mode" whose isolated, protected ideas showed complete mismatch with market need when launched. Why? Because that isolation reflects arrogance. You have two options here: a) say your vague idea and hear from people who care about it, getting more data, more ideas, more market need (or lack of), more competitive landscape, etc. e.g., The line: "We're working on fixing the calendar" Person: "Have you tried Sunrise? It's great, but I can't use it because it asks for permissions my security team won't allow" This gives you, as product creator, info. Or maybe the person wants to come work with you, or knows someone who is passionate about it, or knows someone wanting to invest in that, etc. b) Say "we're in stealth mode" This shuts down any opportunity immediately. I guess b) is reasonable when you are disinterested in further conversation (totally legitimate)[1], otherwise it just accomplishes nothing other than providing an air of arrogance. [1] When I was at Apple in mid 00s, the standard line to strangers was "sorry, we're prohibited from discussing features or future products for legal reasons". This shut down conversation immediately, which was the intention.
AsymetricCom 13y ago
YCombinator would say that..
federicola 13y ago
Time ago was on a workshop with a serial entrepreneur/investor on SV, and he told to the audience to be not afraid to tell to "the right people" your idea(you need to let the world know about your business) "at right time".
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
hynahmwxsbyb 13y ago
How did this get upvoted? This is an old coversation and the article didn't actually add anything to the debate. Very spammy. Let's keep HN fat free.

87 points by Ataub24 13y ago

This reminds me of the hilarious "A day in the life of a startup founder" by jgrahamc [1]. It's the first place I learned about double-stealth mode. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4166183 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4166183

igorgue 13y ago
Obvious troll is obvious?

mattzito 13y ago

I generally agree - but the only thing I'll say to defend stealth startups is that sometimes it makes sense to keep quiet until you have something to show people. Not for competitive reasons, or because you're worried someone's going to steal your idea, but because you want to stop your idea from being judged out of context or before it's ready. Once it's ready (enough) to be shown, at least then people will judge it fully baked, instead of basing their opinion on the elevator pitch.

Ataub24 13y ago
It's totally okay to keep quiet about what you are working on- but you typically have a vision or idea of what problem you are trying to tackle. You can just talk about that when people ask you...

ivankirigin 13y ago

Yes. There is a world of difference between talking publicly about your ideas and talking privately. It is incredibly ignorant to assume the person you're talking to is going to somehow hurt your business. Not only that, but you miss the opportunity to get feedback on your idea, making you more likely to fail.

orenbarzilai 13y ago

As some one once said (can't remember who) "stealth mode is for fighter jets not startups"

moocowduckquack 13y ago
What about startups building fighter jets?
- orenbarzilai 13y ago
  regular fighter jets or stealth jets?

Oculus 13y ago

I think their are valid times when stealth can be important. The most prominent example I know of would be Siri. In the words of Adam Cheyer: I'm convinced that staying in stealth mode was critical to our success. He goes on to explain why: We were based on some fairly heavy technologies (natural language understanding, conversational dialog, context, local search, plan-based service delegation, PCI-compliant data stores, machine learning), and it took us two years to go from our initial prototype to something ready to deploy and scale. A few weeks after we launched, Steve Jobs called the office and the rest is history. As a startup, we were potentially competing with large companies with lots of resources (e.g. Google, Microsoft), and we needed a good running head start before anyone knew precisely what we were trying to accomplish. For a more user-facing, social website where getting the right features is important, don't be stealthy, just get it up and iterate (c.f. http://change.org http://change.org). But if you have a technology that takes some time to get right, being stealthy enables you to have buzz when you emerge and the head-start you need to compete with anyone. Here's the link: http://www.quora.com/Stealth-Startups/Is-there-a-single-example-of-a-company-that-started-in-stealth-mode-and-launched-to-success http://www.quora.com/Stealth-Startups/Is-there-a-single-exam...

Ataub24 13y ago
interesting. thanks Oculus.
stonemetal 13y ago
There is a difference between "Oh I can't talk about it we're in stealth mode" and not running an ad campaign notifying the world of what you plan to do. As a start up Google and MS literally pay no attention to what you are doing. It is only after Apple picked them up that the big G even bothered attempting to put together voice search on android and did it relatively quickly. what benefits did they derive from stealth? None as far as I can tell. Google didn't care about trying to re implement their idea until Apple showed interest and they needed a counter to Apple. As a general rule of thumb no established company is going to steal your startup idea until after you have launched and proved successful, pre-launch they have better things to do. What did they lose by not talking about it? Who knows people around here like to talk about the serendipity of bumping in to the right person while at lunch.

yajoe 13y ago

> If you need to be stealth so you don’t tip off competitors, you need to really re-think if you are building a long-term business... At the end of the day, being a startup in “stealth mode” happens when founders put too much value in ideas, and not execution. May I propose a contrarian narrative? I see experienced founders use the "stealth mode" veil specifically because they are focusing on execution and don't really want to waste time in polite conversation debating the merits of an idea or rehashing a list of competitors. Talking too much about ideas is deleterious to the focus needed for building products. Sometimes the brain needs a break and a person wants to connect with other human beings for something other than work. I'm sorry you weren't able to judge the last 5 people based on their ideas! You found another way, bravo!

Ataub24 13y ago
They don't need to tell you the full story. But saying- we are trying to solve how people discover new products that their friends buy. We should have a product out in the next few months. That's a lot better than saying we are stealth. You didn't give away anything. Ya feel me?
- 3327 13y ago
  Agree perhaps, from a psychological standpoint I say stealth all the time because I am plain sick and tired of telling every person whom inevitably asks the question, "so whats your startup working on". I'd rather think of the code I need to write the next day or just talk about macro economy and other things. My life is 24/7 startup already. And may I add: seasoned entrepreneurs don't ask THAT question they either wait for you do talk about it yourself or don't pester you with it because they have all been there too.
- cargo8 13y ago
  The problem is the response to that is almost always "Oh you mean like ______?". The answer to that is almost certainly no, but you can't really say or explain why unless you reveal too much about your startup at too early a stage. Then people get the impression you are working on some stupid idea that has already been done. There are a lot of reasons not to reveal what you are working on exactly, but giving the industry isn't necessarily the best thing to do either. A lot of experienced founders will also do this because they don't want wild rumors flying around about what they are building / working on next from a one-liner that they mentioned without wanting or being able to get into the details about it with some stranger.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

bencollier49 13y ago

I'm not sure I wholeheartedly agree with this. Giving potential competitors months of lead time to either clone the USP of a startup or make changes to lessen its impact doesn't seem terribly sensible in a lot of situations.

workbench 13y ago

Don't know why you expected anything else from an "ideas guy"

chmike 13y ago

Of course replying to an inquiry that the project is in stealth mode is like a slap in the face. This can be avoided by using a decoy project. This will be less brutal and will avoid attracting attention. Regarding secrecy, obviously the secret sauce has to be kept secret. But the problem one tries to address can be exposed and will allow to collect new feedback. This is valuable because if the existence and seriousness of the problem you try to address is confirmed you earn a new prospect and a new validation of the pertinence of the project. You may also learn new aspects of the problems or expected solutions you may have initially overlooked.

aclimatt 13y ago

One thing that worries me about "stealth" start-ups is that it implies (not all the time, but often) a lack of market research and validation ahead of time. While there are ways to get potential customers excited about a product and challenge your assumptions without necessarily revealing everything, more often than not, it seems like the majority of the assumptions will not be tested until launch, which ends up being a few hundred thousand (or million) too late. [0][1][2] There are some products that don't necessarily need that level of validation ahead of time. There are some founders who have networks so wide, that they can start with a userbase of 5,000 people regardless of what they build. But for everybody else, proper validation of your assumptions might be the one thing saving your start-up from failure. And not telling anybody about it seems like a pretty easy way to get there. [0] http://www.businessinsider.com/33-startups-that-died-reveal-why-they-failed-2013-6?op=1 http://www.businessinsider.com/33-startups-that-died-reveal-... [1] http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/03/19/warning-7-steps-to-startup-failure/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/03/19/warning-7-... [2] http://jamesmaskell.co.uk/2013/why-vinetrade-failed/ http://jamesmaskell.co.uk/2013/why-vinetrade-failed/

visarga 13y ago

Overgeneralizations are ...

eladgil 13y ago

I think the value of stealth mode really depends on context. E.g. I think GroupOn's series A created a lot of competition, as VCs all told their portfolio companies to pivot in that direction. http://blog.eladgil.com/2011/04/is-stealth-mode-stupid.html http://blog.eladgil.com/2011/04/is-stealth-mode-stupid.html

threepipeproblm 13y ago

Based on what? Here is an elegant statement of the opposite point of view by Peter Thiel, which includes a coherent argument. http://blakemasters.com/post/22866240816/peter-thiels-cs183-startup-class-11-notes-essay http://blakemasters.com/post/22866240816/peter-thiels-cs183-...

gergles 13y ago
This statement is far from 'elegant', it is tens of thousands of words that ultimately say nothing. The relevant section is 7B, which says that their ultimate success was not keeping a secret!
- threepipeproblm 13y ago
  No it doesn't. 7b says "The right time to bring people in is rarely at the very beginning, all at once." It also says that whether or not (or to what degree) stealth mode makes sense depends on the environment.

tb303 13y ago

I know of some currently successful companies whose founders used meaningful, honest, yet vague phrases like "we're trying to change the way people ___________". And they did. And I know of about 5x the startups whose founders used the phrase "we're in stealth mode" whose isolated, protected ideas showed complete mismatch with market need when launched. Why? Because that isolation reflects arrogance. You have two options here: a) say your vague idea and hear from people who care about it, getting more data, more ideas, more market need (or lack of), more competitive landscape, etc. e.g., The line: "We're working on fixing the calendar" Person: "Have you tried Sunrise? It's great, but I can't use it because it asks for permissions my security team won't allow" This gives you, as product creator, info. Or maybe the person wants to come work with you, or knows someone who is passionate about it, or knows someone wanting to invest in that, etc. b) Say "we're in stealth mode" This shuts down any opportunity immediately. I guess b) is reasonable when you are disinterested in further conversation (totally legitimate)[1], otherwise it just accomplishes nothing other than providing an air of arrogance. [1] When I was at Apple in mid 00s, the standard line to strangers was "sorry, we're prohibited from discussing features or future products for legal reasons". This shut down conversation immediately, which was the intention.

AsymetricCom 13y ago

YCombinator would say that..

federicola 13y ago

Time ago was on a workshop with a serial entrepreneur/investor on SV, and he told to the audience to be not afraid to tell to "the right people" your idea(you need to let the world know about your business) "at right time".

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

hynahmwxsbyb 13y ago

How did this get upvoted? This is an old coversation and the article didn't actually add anything to the debate. Very spammy. Let's keep HN fat free.