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> An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Wow, I couldn't disagree more on this point. One of the great things abo

by ronaldx 13y ago

> An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Wow, I couldn't disagree more on this point. One of the great things about the Olympics is that it's without politics [er... in this regard]. I don't believe that it's acceptable to say that places with different cultural values make unsuitable hosts. Human rights criticisms were also levelled at London, and even more at Beijing. In general, the Olympics (indirectly) does a lot to raise awareness of human rights and it's good that it is able to do this by spanning the breadth of the world's culture. Hosting the Olympics in Sochi will allow individuals' achievements to be celebrated within Russia without the permission of politicians and without the stigma of prejudice. I hope instead that gay participants will be encouraged to come out and raise awareness in the relative safety of the occasion: since Godwin's law has already been invoked, I would compare the situation to Jesse Owens at the Berlin Olympics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Owens#Berlin_Olympics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Owens#Berlin_Olympics

alexakarpov 13y ago
..and that's why Fry mentions that: "The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  OK, yes, it's this attitude which I was disagreeing with: Sports and politics may be innately interconnected, but that doesn't mean we should seek to make sports even more political. To have a requirement that the Olympics is hosted only in countries with political approval by [Stephen Fry/Western cultural values] would prevent it from having any global influence. Should the Olympics ultimately alternate between the EU and the US? Obviously not. It's a good thing that political and cultural values of a country are not or are minimally part of the bidding and selection process. If you're not aware, the IOC requires bidding countries to commit to IOC laws - which include special treatment and legal exemptions for athletes and visitors who may not otherwise be welcome. Although not without problems, I find that a sufficient way to make countries fall in line with the Olympic tradition without directly interfering with their local political process.
  - alexakarpov 13y ago
    "Make sports even more political" -- this is our disagreement, yes. You think sports and politics are somehow 'independent things' -- but they aren't. Best parallel would be: money and wealth and private property and capital and production are all connected. Communists said they really aren't, and should be made 'less connected' - somehow, they want to have production without everything else. Well, we all know it doesn't work this way. Same here -- you can't artificially disconnect 'politics' from 'sport'. It will remain connected... because it is connected!
    - ronaldx 13y ago
      You have not addressed my main point, so I will simplify it: The Olympics cannot judge a host country for its political values, or it would have a strong cultural bias and not be a global event.
      - alexakarpov 13y ago
        sorry, didn't realize this was the main point I've never read the Olympics code, list of principles etc, but I can imagine there's something about human dignity and freedom and liberty? Well, liberty should be a lowest common denominator. I.e. -- your culture allows some people to enslave and oppress other people, and deny them life, property and dignity? Well your culture is a piece of shit and you don't host Olympics. Easy! Cultural bias? Sure - cultural bias of human against blood-sucking goblins doesn't sound too bad.
alexakarpov 13y ago
There's an old joke from Communist times. It goes like this -- and old communist argues: - What do you mean, we don't respect human rights? Of course we respect human rights! Why, I can provide the name of that human right now! Same goes for 'celebrating human achievements' you've mentioned. No such thing will happen. There's only one achievement allowed into the celebration - the achievement of United Russia Party and its leader. Whatever the emotional positive externalities these Game might produce, all will be harvested by state propaganda.
- wisty 13y ago
  I can't resist. "Comrade, what is Capitalism?" "Capitalism is the oppression of man by man". "And what is Communism?" "It's the opposite of Capitalism".
ihsw 13y ago
Fortunately, Nazi Germany didn't arrest Jesse Owens upon arrival to the country. Russia has made it clear that they will not afford the same freedom to gays and lesbians, or more to the point they plan on arresting them immediately upon arrival.
- GotAnyMegadeth 13y ago
  I thought that they were going to ignore the anti-LGBT laws for the Olympics [0] [0] http://rt.com/news/russia-olympics-gay-law-948/ http://rt.com/news/russia-olympics-gay-law-948/
  - bayesianhorse 13y ago
    They clarified later that they are going to enforce that law.
    - hedgie13 13y ago
      They clarified: the law does not prohibit being gay, the law just introduces fines for promoting homosexuality as a norm for children under 16. It is probably a bad law, but it is not saying what everyone protesting it thinks it is saying.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  Do you have a source for that? I agree there is not a nice atmosphere (as there wasn't for Owens), but your suggestion that athletes will be arrested on arrival is simply not evident. Minister Vitaly Mutko... "No one is forbidding an athlete with non-traditional sexual orientation from coming to Sochi, but if he goes onto the street and starts propagandizing it, then of course he will be held accountable" In any case, arresting athletes is sure to provoke immediate international outrage.
  - ihsw 13y ago
    > If a law has been approved by the federal legislature and signed by the president, then the government has no right to suspend it. It doesn't have the authority. Vitaly was interviewed once again, recently. Take your pick: http://www.ibtimes.com/george-takei-move-2014-winter-olympics-out-russia-1374805 http://www.ibtimes.com/george-takei-move-2014-winter-olympic... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/russia-anti-gay-olympic-games-sochi_n_3676311.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/russia-anti-gay-oly... http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-lawmaker-suggests-gay-athletes-prosecuted-2014-winter/storynew?id=19829868 http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-lawmaker-suggest... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/russia-anti-gay-laws-2014-olympics-article-1.1413465 http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/russia-anti-gay-laws-2014-...

by ronaldx 13y ago

alexakarpov 13y ago

..and that's why Fry mentions that: "The idea that sport and politics don’t connect is worse than disingenuous, worse than stupid. It is wickedly, wilfully wrong. Everyone knows politics interconnects with everything for “politics” is simply the Greek for “to do with the people”.

ronaldx 13y ago
OK, yes, it's this attitude which I was disagreeing with: Sports and politics may be innately interconnected, but that doesn't mean we should seek to make sports even more political. To have a requirement that the Olympics is hosted only in countries with political approval by [Stephen Fry/Western cultural values] would prevent it from having any global influence. Should the Olympics ultimately alternate between the EU and the US? Obviously not. It's a good thing that political and cultural values of a country are not or are minimally part of the bidding and selection process. If you're not aware, the IOC requires bidding countries to commit to IOC laws - which include special treatment and legal exemptions for athletes and visitors who may not otherwise be welcome. Although not without problems, I find that a sufficient way to make countries fall in line with the Olympic tradition without directly interfering with their local political process.
- alexakarpov 13y ago
  "Make sports even more political" -- this is our disagreement, yes. You think sports and politics are somehow 'independent things' -- but they aren't. Best parallel would be: money and wealth and private property and capital and production are all connected. Communists said they really aren't, and should be made 'less connected' - somehow, they want to have production without everything else. Well, we all know it doesn't work this way. Same here -- you can't artificially disconnect 'politics' from 'sport'. It will remain connected... because it is connected!
  - ronaldx 13y ago
    You have not addressed my main point, so I will simplify it: The Olympics cannot judge a host country for its political values, or it would have a strong cultural bias and not be a global event.
    - alexakarpov 13y ago
      sorry, didn't realize this was the main point I've never read the Olympics code, list of principles etc, but I can imagine there's something about human dignity and freedom and liberty? Well, liberty should be a lowest common denominator. I.e. -- your culture allows some people to enslave and oppress other people, and deny them life, property and dignity? Well your culture is a piece of shit and you don't host Olympics. Easy! Cultural bias? Sure - cultural bias of human against blood-sucking goblins doesn't sound too bad.

alexakarpov 13y ago

There's an old joke from Communist times. It goes like this -- and old communist argues: - What do you mean, we don't respect human rights? Of course we respect human rights! Why, I can provide the name of that human right now! Same goes for 'celebrating human achievements' you've mentioned. No such thing will happen. There's only one achievement allowed into the celebration - the achievement of United Russia Party and its leader. Whatever the emotional positive externalities these Game might produce, all will be harvested by state propaganda.

wisty 13y ago
I can't resist. "Comrade, what is Capitalism?" "Capitalism is the oppression of man by man". "And what is Communism?" "It's the opposite of Capitalism".

ihsw 13y ago

Fortunately, Nazi Germany didn't arrest Jesse Owens upon arrival to the country. Russia has made it clear that they will not afford the same freedom to gays and lesbians, or more to the point they plan on arresting them immediately upon arrival.

GotAnyMegadeth 13y ago
I thought that they were going to ignore the anti-LGBT laws for the Olympics [0] [0] http://rt.com/news/russia-olympics-gay-law-948/ http://rt.com/news/russia-olympics-gay-law-948/
- bayesianhorse 13y ago
  They clarified later that they are going to enforce that law.
  - hedgie13 13y ago
    They clarified: the law does not prohibit being gay, the law just introduces fines for promoting homosexuality as a norm for children under 16. It is probably a bad law, but it is not saying what everyone protesting it thinks it is saying.
ronaldx 13y ago
Do you have a source for that? I agree there is not a nice atmosphere (as there wasn't for Owens), but your suggestion that athletes will be arrested on arrival is simply not evident. Minister Vitaly Mutko... "No one is forbidding an athlete with non-traditional sexual orientation from coming to Sochi, but if he goes onto the street and starts propagandizing it, then of course he will be held accountable" In any case, arresting athletes is sure to provoke immediate international outrage.
- ihsw 13y ago
  > If a law has been approved by the federal legislature and signed by the president, then the government has no right to suspend it. It doesn't have the authority. Vitaly was interviewed once again, recently. Take your pick: http://www.ibtimes.com/george-takei-move-2014-winter-olympics-out-russia-1374805 http://www.ibtimes.com/george-takei-move-2014-winter-olympic... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/russia-anti-gay-olympic-games-sochi_n_3676311.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/30/russia-anti-gay-oly... http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-lawmaker-suggests-gay-athletes-prosecuted-2014-winter/storynew?id=19829868 http://abcnews.go.com/International/russian-lawmaker-suggest... http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/russia-anti-gay-laws-2014-olympics-article-1.1413465 http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/russia-anti-gay-laws-2014-...