4 ms·

I understood the quote as an insult to nerds who are afraid to talk to women and not as homophobia.

hugofirth 13y ago
Agreed - it is interesting that the phrasing in the article was deliberately gender agnostic. What is the relevance of political correctness in the context of a boorish and petty insult?
- wmeredith 13y ago
  Political correctness in the context of a boorish and petty assault? That's politics 101.
  - hugofirth 13y ago
    Touche ;)
brudgers 13y ago
The premises upon which you have concluded that the statement is not homophobia are: () It is an insult targeted at the named groups. () It is targeted at men. () Not trying to bed women is an insult to men. All three premises are dubious. Insults are directed at the person to be insulted. In so far as it is an insult, it was almost certainly targeted at members of the audience sympathetic to transparency and privacy. Which is not to say that there probably weren't any nerds among the policy wonks at the Bi-Partisan Security Center where Hayden's remarks were delivered It is really your second premise that begins to illuminate why the remarks are homophobic - the premise of the insult has been entangled with not gender in general [despite reading that way] but masculinity in particular. Once entangled, we get to the intended essence of the insult - implying that someone is unsuccessful under the model of heterosexual masculinity. The essence of the insult is that it feminizes its intended targets. I think we both agree, he is saying that those who favor government transparency and the privacy of citizens aren't fully realized as men. The premises upon which the insult is based are rather self-contradictory on their face when it comes to women - they contain the implication that it's ok for women to be soft. Deeper down of course, the model of "real men" contains a rubric for determining success which applies to all the ambitious regardless of gender. I cannot prove that his remark is homophobic, but entanglement of insult with a lack of conformance to a purely heterosexual model of human relations and the connotation of heterosexual masculinity in particular certainly are meta-data consistent with homophobia.
- JshWright 13y ago
  It's quite obvious that he was referring to the societal stereotype that 'nerds' (of either sex) are socially inept and incapable of having anything other than an awkward conversation with the opposite sex (despite their desire for 'normal,' sexual relationships). If you don't believe that stereotype exists, go watch _any_ episode of The Big Bang Theory.
  - steveklabnik 13y ago
    Your parent is not disputing that; they're saying that the _reason_ that being 'incapable of having anything other than an awkward conversation' is negative is due to attitudes relating to masculinity. You're talking about the symptom, they're talking about the cause.
duaneb 13y ago
For now, maybe, but that's not much better. Stigmatization has to begin somewhere, alienating his audience from "hackers" who obviously aren't very human.

Agreed - it is interesting that the phrasing in the article was deliberately gender agnostic. What is the relevance of political correctness in the context of a boorish and petty insult?

wmeredith 13y ago
Political correctness in the context of a boorish and petty assault? That's politics 101.
- hugofirth 13y ago
  Touche ;)

brudgers 13y ago

The premises upon which you have concluded that the statement is not homophobia are: () It is an insult targeted at the named groups. () It is targeted at men. () Not trying to bed women is an insult to men. All three premises are dubious. Insults are directed at the person to be insulted. In so far as it is an insult, it was almost certainly targeted at members of the audience sympathetic to transparency and privacy. Which is not to say that there probably weren't any nerds among the policy wonks at the Bi-Partisan Security Center where Hayden's remarks were delivered It is really your second premise that begins to illuminate why the remarks are homophobic - the premise of the insult has been entangled with not gender in general [despite reading that way] but masculinity in particular. Once entangled, we get to the intended essence of the insult - implying that someone is unsuccessful under the model of heterosexual masculinity. The essence of the insult is that it feminizes its intended targets. I think we both agree, he is saying that those who favor government transparency and the privacy of citizens aren't fully realized as men. The premises upon which the insult is based are rather self-contradictory on their face when it comes to women - they contain the implication that it's ok for women to be soft. Deeper down of course, the model of "real men" contains a rubric for determining success which applies to all the ambitious regardless of gender. I cannot prove that his remark is homophobic, but entanglement of insult with a lack of conformance to a purely heterosexual model of human relations and the connotation of heterosexual masculinity in particular certainly are meta-data consistent with homophobia.

JshWright 13y ago
It's quite obvious that he was referring to the societal stereotype that 'nerds' (of either sex) are socially inept and incapable of having anything other than an awkward conversation with the opposite sex (despite their desire for 'normal,' sexual relationships). If you don't believe that stereotype exists, go watch _any_ episode of The Big Bang Theory.
- steveklabnik 13y ago
  Your parent is not disputing that; they're saying that the _reason_ that being 'incapable of having anything other than an awkward conversation' is negative is due to attitudes relating to masculinity. You're talking about the symptom, they're talking about the cause.

duaneb 13y ago

For now, maybe, but that's not much better. Stigmatization has to begin somewhere, alienating his audience from "hackers" who obviously aren't very human.