4 ms·
> Except that time happens and that single state policy is modified on a continual basis. Great, so we can have ever-escalating conflict among factions for eph
by Gormo 13y ago
> Except that time happens and that single state policy is modified on a continual basis.
Great, so we can have ever-escalating conflict among factions for ephemeral control over the source of uniform top-down policy. And, on top of that, we get an ever-shifting policy equilibrium without any stability or predictability. How can this be regarded as a workable system?
The fact remains that at any given moment, there's a single set of policies that apply universally within society. The likely ephemeral nature of the current policy equilibrium has no bearing on the fact that the nature of the system eliminates all possibility of "agreeing to disagree".
In a system where all social questions are political ones, and all political questions are addressed as universals, there's no alternative to all-encompassing political conflict. Every divergence in values or priorities serves as the basis for an all-or-nothing struggle, that invariably spills over into the rest of society, and corrupts our social relations to the point that every other institution and community in society becomes polluted by political acrimony, even in contexts where the political state has no legitimate role. The so-called "culture war" in modern American society is a clear example of this.
> How is this not the case in a democracy?
It is the case in a substantive democracy, where clear boundaries are indeed drawn between distinct social context and institutions, and in which the state is properly regarded as a single institution within society, and not a unified expression of the whole.
Where those boundaries are blurred, and the political state is equated with society as a whole, substantive pluralism is diminished, and authority becomes concentrated in the institution of the state.
> Pluralism comes from the liberal doctrine of individualism; it's a natural consequence of asserting the individual worthiness and dignity, which demands that the individual's concerns be considered in some fashion.
No, real pluralism doesn't come from some vague notion that "individual's concerns be considered in some fashion", by some unstated but presumptively singular authority.
It comes from the recognition of the fact that society is the patterns of interaction that exist among individuals who assert their own agency, in pursuit of their own purposes, in undertaking relations with others, and that in doing so, they create a great plurality of autonomous communities and institutions, and maintain the inherent right to define the nature of those communities and institutions without making reference to putative universals promulgated by external third parties.
> Making a false distinction between state and society is useful only for disempowering citizens who see themselves as part of one but not the other
Asserting a false equivalency between society at large and the state in particular is useful only for disempowering citizens, who learn to outsource responsibility for their particular circumstances to external institutions and vague abstractions, instead of applying their own initiative, in concert with others, within the context of the substantive institutions and communities that they inhabit.
> Why do we rely so heavily on the fourth estate to speak on our behalf?
You might, but we don't.
> Why are we ourselves not speaking?
What is this obsession with talking, anyway. Speech isn't action, and exit is more important than voice.
- saraid216 13y ago> The fact remains that at any given moment, there's a single set of policies that apply universally within society. Is your issue with universalism, then? That the policies fail to discriminate between different groups for different reasons? Would it be more proper to bring in communitarianism? > In a system where all social questions are political ones, and all political questions are addressed as universals, there's no alternative to all-encompassing political conflict Every divergence in values or priorities serves as the basis for an all-or-nothing struggle Except that this has been true for all of history, and it's by systematizing it that we gain some measure of control over it. Instead of conducting warfare every time people disagree, we have means for communicating and compromising as a first resort. > by some unstated but presumptively singular authority. You keep straw-manning me by implying that I'm proposing a dictatorship masquerading as a democracy, but you've yet to actually show that I'm doing this. Since I'm trying to argue in good faith, then either your interpretation of my claims are mistaken or my understanding of the consequences is incorrect. I'm willing to cede the latter, but you have to actually demonstrate that incorrectness. Alternatively, you could make a positive proposition by suggesting an actual system that goes beyond "diffuse power as widely as possible to make sure no one can ever accomplish anything and the status quo never changes". > It comes from the recognition of the fact that society is the patterns of interaction that exist among individuals who assert their own agency, in pursuit of their own purposes, in undertaking relations with others, and that in doing so, they create a great plurality of autonomous communities and institutions, and maintain the inherent right to define the nature of those communities and institutions without making reference to putative universals promulgated by external third parties. I absolutely agree. This is exactly what I've been describing. If it were up to me, I'd strike down every single national border. I haven't figured out what to do about land use, but I'm a proponent of Benjamin Barber's federation of cities in the abstract: I simply do not find nations to be a useful social construct. Other people disagree with me. But here's where we run into a problem. You say "autonomous communities and institutions" and I see a state. That's what a state is. "autonomous" is just another way to say "sovereign". These "putative universals" you refer to aren't "promulgated by external third parties". That's the entire point of a democracy: the universals come from the community expressing itself through a system of law. They aren't third parties.