3 ms·

>the average citizen Absolutely nothing. Learn to deal with it, because this is the future.

wmeredith 13y ago
Ugh. Malaise like this that is the real evil we must be wary of, not individual acts like the one detailed in this story. The cops were abusing their power and it went on until someone stuck up for themselves, rather than "learning to deal with it". You see how that works? They sued them and won. The ACLU, who brought the case, is made up of average citizens. They put their pants on one leg at a time like you and I, as does their donor base. Any average citizen can call and write representatives; they can spread their thoughts via word of mouth, social media, and traditional media; they can vote with their dollar by supporting groups like the ACLU, the EFF, the NRA, and others that are professionally taking up the fight for their particular flavor of civil liberty. It's never been easier to do stuff like this, thanks to the miracle of modern communications technology. I could pursue all avenues noted above this afternoon and be done with it if I just had the will (the way is literally at our fingertips). Throwing up hands and saying, "deal with it" sure is easy; it's what bullies and opportunists count on to continue taking more and creating less. The freedoms we have didn't happen on accident. They are not being eroded by irresistible laws of nature. They are under attack by people. They always have been and they always will be. That is the future, the present and the past. It's a long, hard fight. We've opted out of the food chain, it's not tooth and nail anymore in 1st world countries, but there's a constant battle of wits and wills. There are no silver bullets, it's a group effort on our side and "theirs". You should join in and pick a side (there are many to choose from). Fight back. It's not easy, but the rewards are as high as the costs. You'll never look back on your life and think, "Gee, I wish I'd spent more time not getting involved in things I cared about." And you'll never have to let someone look you in the eye and say you're a wimp, you didn't try, and you _don't_ count.
- squozzer 13y ago
  Ultimately, successful revolutions depend on two things -- 1) A general level of dissatisfaction; 2) Someone or something that crystallizes the dissatisfaction into action. And it doesn't always mean open warfare. Rosa Parks satisfied criterion #2 to launch the Civil Rights era.
  - wmeredith 13y ago
    Yep, and she was backed up by hundreds, then thousands, then millions of average citizens all talking, attending, spending, and voting.
- bulatb 13y ago
  > [Freedoms] are not being eroded by irresistible laws of nature. Yes they are. Without infusions of external energy—in this case citizens who work to keep their rights—entropy increases, complex structures rot and crumble, and order fades into disorder. If checks and balances aren't actively maintained, they slowly disappear. It takes lots of effort to maintain a legal framework that, from the cops' perspective, mostly makes it harder to close cases where the suspect is "obviously" guilty. So first they start ignoring little bits of it to speed things up. Then they ignore bigger things, and entropy increases further. The fewer legal barriers there are to a conviction, the less ordered we can call the system. After more of this erosion, we reach the most disordered state of all: This guy has a gun, so you do what he says or else. ΔS >= 0, in our social systems just as much as in the universe, because they can't escape the limits of the system they're embedded in.
  - wmeredith 13y ago
    >> [Freedoms] are not being eroded by irresistible laws of nature. >Yes they are. No, They are not. Trying to apply a physical law to a philosophical construct is folly. Freedom has no mass, it's an idea. I'm familiar with entropy. You could just as easily say that the power structures in this story seeking to steal from the weak are being eroded as well. They, too, must be maintained. Entropy is a force that both sides of society must contend with, and has little to do with my argument as gravity. Don't get me wrong, I see the appeal of the application. To think that horrible things done by humanity are no ones fault. To think that it's forgivable to acquiesce and accept evil as inevitable. I've surely succumb to it myself throughout my life. However, evil and maliciousness can be fought by the same agents that perpetrate it. Small acts by many individuals add up to greatness (NASA) or horror (War). Evil will never be eradicated, it's part of human nature. It can be held in check by those who seek to do good, and throwing up hands and saying, "It has nothing to do with me. Forces of nature." is not some virtuous way out. It's not some noble intellectual loophole that you understand shit happens and are above the squalor. It's an insidious brand of laziness that I see far too much of from in a crowd as empowered as those on Hackernews. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Possibly[1] Edmund Burke 1. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#Disputed http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#Disputed
- pearjuice 13y ago
  Brave words but those make you a non-average citizen. For every one like you - who is willing to stand up - there are another 1000 who will tell you to have apathy and frown upon your actions.
  - wmeredith 13y ago
    Most definitely. The refrain I was railing against was a reply of, "Nothing" to the question, "What CAN an average citizen do?". The answer is not "nothing". The answer is "Anything _except_ nothing". What they WILL do is a matter for the historians to debate after the dust clears. There are many reasons to bow down to those that would do yourself or others harm. I live a comfortable life. I'm not in the streets throwing Molotov cocktails (hello NSA), but to say it is because there is nothing that CAN be done is a fantasy. It would help me feel better about seeing evil in the world, recognizing it, and then giving it a pass out of laziness or because it directly benefits me. It's an attitude that makes us part of the problem. It's not an excuse that pardons me from the fight.
    - pearjuice 13y ago
      Anything you CAN do has no real effect on the matter and is just tiny noise - therefore you will have to learn to deal with it untill everyone who CAN do something WILL do it. Then the noise will overthrow the signal.
      - teddyh 13y ago
        “Anything you do will be insignificant, but it is vitally important that you do it.”

Ugh. Malaise like this that is the real evil we must be wary of, not individual acts like the one detailed in this story. The cops were abusing their power and it went on until someone stuck up for themselves, rather than "learning to deal with it". You see how that works? They sued them and won. The ACLU, who brought the case, is made up of average citizens. They put their pants on one leg at a time like you and I, as does their donor base. Any average citizen can call and write representatives; they can spread their thoughts via word of mouth, social media, and traditional media; they can vote with their dollar by supporting groups like the ACLU, the EFF, the NRA, and others that are professionally taking up the fight for their particular flavor of civil liberty. It's never been easier to do stuff like this, thanks to the miracle of modern communications technology. I could pursue all avenues noted above this afternoon and be done with it if I just had the will (the way is literally at our fingertips). Throwing up hands and saying, "deal with it" sure is easy; it's what bullies and opportunists count on to continue taking more and creating less. The freedoms we have didn't happen on accident. They are not being eroded by irresistible laws of nature. They are under attack by people. They always have been and they always will be. That is the future, the present and the past. It's a long, hard fight. We've opted out of the food chain, it's not tooth and nail anymore in 1st world countries, but there's a constant battle of wits and wills. There are no silver bullets, it's a group effort on our side and "theirs". You should join in and pick a side (there are many to choose from). Fight back. It's not easy, but the rewards are as high as the costs. You'll never look back on your life and think, "Gee, I wish I'd spent more time not getting involved in things I cared about." And you'll never have to let someone look you in the eye and say you're a wimp, you didn't try, and you _don't_ count.

squozzer 13y ago
Ultimately, successful revolutions depend on two things -- 1) A general level of dissatisfaction; 2) Someone or something that crystallizes the dissatisfaction into action. And it doesn't always mean open warfare. Rosa Parks satisfied criterion #2 to launch the Civil Rights era.
- wmeredith 13y ago
  Yep, and she was backed up by hundreds, then thousands, then millions of average citizens all talking, attending, spending, and voting.
bulatb 13y ago
> [Freedoms] are not being eroded by irresistible laws of nature. Yes they are. Without infusions of external energy—in this case citizens who work to keep their rights—entropy increases, complex structures rot and crumble, and order fades into disorder. If checks and balances aren't actively maintained, they slowly disappear. It takes lots of effort to maintain a legal framework that, from the cops' perspective, mostly makes it harder to close cases where the suspect is "obviously" guilty. So first they start ignoring little bits of it to speed things up. Then they ignore bigger things, and entropy increases further. The fewer legal barriers there are to a conviction, the less ordered we can call the system. After more of this erosion, we reach the most disordered state of all: This guy has a gun, so you do what he says or else. ΔS >= 0, in our social systems just as much as in the universe, because they can't escape the limits of the system they're embedded in.
- wmeredith 13y ago
  >> [Freedoms] are not being eroded by irresistible laws of nature. >Yes they are. No, They are not. Trying to apply a physical law to a philosophical construct is folly. Freedom has no mass, it's an idea. I'm familiar with entropy. You could just as easily say that the power structures in this story seeking to steal from the weak are being eroded as well. They, too, must be maintained. Entropy is a force that both sides of society must contend with, and has little to do with my argument as gravity. Don't get me wrong, I see the appeal of the application. To think that horrible things done by humanity are no ones fault. To think that it's forgivable to acquiesce and accept evil as inevitable. I've surely succumb to it myself throughout my life. However, evil and maliciousness can be fought by the same agents that perpetrate it. Small acts by many individuals add up to greatness (NASA) or horror (War). Evil will never be eradicated, it's part of human nature. It can be held in check by those who seek to do good, and throwing up hands and saying, "It has nothing to do with me. Forces of nature." is not some virtuous way out. It's not some noble intellectual loophole that you understand shit happens and are above the squalor. It's an insidious brand of laziness that I see far too much of from in a crowd as empowered as those on Hackernews. "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." - Possibly[1] Edmund Burke 1. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#Disputed http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#Disputed
pearjuice 13y ago
Brave words but those make you a non-average citizen. For every one like you - who is willing to stand up - there are another 1000 who will tell you to have apathy and frown upon your actions.
- wmeredith 13y ago
  Most definitely. The refrain I was railing against was a reply of, "Nothing" to the question, "What CAN an average citizen do?". The answer is not "nothing". The answer is "Anything _except_ nothing". What they WILL do is a matter for the historians to debate after the dust clears. There are many reasons to bow down to those that would do yourself or others harm. I live a comfortable life. I'm not in the streets throwing Molotov cocktails (hello NSA), but to say it is because there is nothing that CAN be done is a fantasy. It would help me feel better about seeing evil in the world, recognizing it, and then giving it a pass out of laziness or because it directly benefits me. It's an attitude that makes us part of the problem. It's not an excuse that pardons me from the fight.
  - pearjuice 13y ago
    Anything you CAN do has no real effect on the matter and is just tiny noise - therefore you will have to learn to deal with it untill everyone who CAN do something WILL do it. Then the noise will overthrow the signal.
    - teddyh 13y ago
      “Anything you do will be insignificant, but it is vitally important that you do it.”