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Not in the same sense. From the article: A former federal agent in the northeastern United States who received such tips from SOD described the proces

by ellyagg 13y ago

Not in the same sense. From the article: A former federal agent in the northeastern United States who received such tips from SOD described the process. "You'd be told only, ‘Be at a certain truck stop at a certain time and look for a certain vehicle.' And so we'd alert the state police to find an excuse to stop that vehicle, and then have a drug dog search it," the agent said. They are stopping vehicles with the only probable cause being an illegally obtained tip and then they are hiding the illegally obtained tip.

tptacek 13y ago
The car still must be stopped for some lawful reason (speeding, broken tail light, &c) and the pivot from traffic stop to car search must still be based on some articulable probable cause that isn't secret information; for instance, drugs in plain site, or arrest warrant.
- gojomo 13y ago
  Those sources of 'probable cause' are trivial to credibly fake without consequences when you've got the strong tip (and already lying about the true reason for your suspicion). The car "drifted" or "failed to signal a lane change" or "failed to maintain a safe following distance" or "moved suspiciously as the patrol-car neared". The officer "smelled something". The driver was "acting weird", or had "bleary eyes" or "droopy eyelids". A drug dog smelled something (which could just be (a) the dog didn't but the officer says it did; (b) the dog follows a subverbal cue from the officer; (c) the dog reacts to traces planted by the officer.) Once the actual search succeeds, the flimsiest fabricated "probable cause" that was "parallel-constructed" will pass muster. So the defense that such searches "must still be based" on something legitimate isn't very convincing. Once you've already been coached to cover-up the true source of information, what's one more "white lie" to catch a "really bad guy"?
  - tptacek 13y ago
    If that was true, then we'd all be searched at every traffic stop, and there would be no point to the (excellent) ACLU videos on what to do if you're stopped by a police officer. But in reality, the sources of PC sufficient to search a car aren't all that easy to credibly fake. Can they be faked? Certainly. Trivially? With the possible exception of drug dogs (which bother me a lot more than this program does), no.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      It isn't necessary to credibly fake PC, though it is easy (see link above). An officer could believe they were correct in their suspicion and their actions would have that bias. Combine that with a mindset of "the ends justify the means" and there is little that would stop many officers from an outright lie in order to achieve their goal.
      - tptacek 13y ago
        The officer can believe whatever they want, but if they can't document in court the actual probable cause that generated the search, the evidence from that search is excluded. Probable cause is not as simple as "the officer says they believed the motorist was probably guilty".
        fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        >Probable cause is not as simple as "the officer says they believed the motorist was probably guilty". That is naive. The bar for documentation is the officer's own recollection or a written report based upon their recollection. Officers receive training on how to obtain PC, and how to subsequently pivot to full searches. SCOTUS has granted wide latitude WRT such techniques. State vehicle codes are written to provide law enforcement officers ample opportunity to establish probable cause to initiate a traffic stop when an individual is suspected of having committed, or about to commit, a crime other than the infraction of the vehicle code. http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/probable-cause-trumps-pretext http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/probable-...
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Explosive- and drug-sniffing dogs' performance is affected by their handlers' beliefs UC Davis study finds detection dogs may exhibit the "Clever Hans" effect http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/2010-2011/02/20110223_drug_dogs.html http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/2010-2011/02/2...

by ellyagg 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

The car still must be stopped for some lawful reason (speeding, broken tail light, &c) and the pivot from traffic stop to car search must still be based on some articulable probable cause that isn't secret information; for instance, drugs in plain site, or arrest warrant.

gojomo 13y ago
Those sources of 'probable cause' are trivial to credibly fake without consequences when you've got the strong tip (and already lying about the true reason for your suspicion). The car "drifted" or "failed to signal a lane change" or "failed to maintain a safe following distance" or "moved suspiciously as the patrol-car neared". The officer "smelled something". The driver was "acting weird", or had "bleary eyes" or "droopy eyelids". A drug dog smelled something (which could just be (a) the dog didn't but the officer says it did; (b) the dog follows a subverbal cue from the officer; (c) the dog reacts to traces planted by the officer.) Once the actual search succeeds, the flimsiest fabricated "probable cause" that was "parallel-constructed" will pass muster. So the defense that such searches "must still be based" on something legitimate isn't very convincing. Once you've already been coached to cover-up the true source of information, what's one more "white lie" to catch a "really bad guy"?
- tptacek 13y ago
  If that was true, then we'd all be searched at every traffic stop, and there would be no point to the (excellent) ACLU videos on what to do if you're stopped by a police officer. But in reality, the sources of PC sufficient to search a car aren't all that easy to credibly fake. Can they be faked? Certainly. Trivially? With the possible exception of drug dogs (which bother me a lot more than this program does), no.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    It isn't necessary to credibly fake PC, though it is easy (see link above). An officer could believe they were correct in their suspicion and their actions would have that bias. Combine that with a mindset of "the ends justify the means" and there is little that would stop many officers from an outright lie in order to achieve their goal.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      The officer can believe whatever they want, but if they can't document in court the actual probable cause that generated the search, the evidence from that search is excluded. Probable cause is not as simple as "the officer says they believed the motorist was probably guilty".
      - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
        >Probable cause is not as simple as "the officer says they believed the motorist was probably guilty". That is naive. The bar for documentation is the officer's own recollection or a written report based upon their recollection. Officers receive training on how to obtain PC, and how to subsequently pivot to full searches. SCOTUS has granted wide latitude WRT such techniques. State vehicle codes are written to provide law enforcement officers ample opportunity to establish probable cause to initiate a traffic stop when an individual is suspected of having committed, or about to commit, a crime other than the infraction of the vehicle code. http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/probable-cause-trumps-pretext http://www.lawofficer.com/article/magazine-feature/probable-...
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Explosive- and drug-sniffing dogs' performance is affected by their handlers' beliefs UC Davis study finds detection dogs may exhibit the "Clever Hans" effect http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/2010-2011/02/20110223_drug_dogs.html http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/2010-2011/02/2...