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That's not really the underlying cause. The US has a much higher (as in: an order of magnitude higher) incarceration rate than the Nordic (or some Central Europ

That's not really the underlying cause. The US has a much higher (as in: an order of magnitude higher) incarceration rate than the Nordic (or some Central European) countries. But the same cannot be said of crime rates. Crime rates in the US tend to be higher, but not nearly that much higher and not across the board. What sets the US apart that leads to high incarceration rates is primarily harsh sentencing (longer sentences, fewer suspended sentences, high minimum sentences, a general focus on retribution over rehabilitation, the "felonization" [1] of everything under the sun). [1] http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.aspx http://www.harveysilverglate.com/Books/ThreeFeloniesaDay.asp... [2] [2] Yes, the book is a bit sensationalist, but there's plenty of truth to it. See, e.g. the Kiera Wilmot case [3]: What she did wouldn't have even risen to the level of a misdemeanor in most Western European countries. [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/kiera-wilmot-lawyer-hoping-to-prevent-felony-charges-from-being-filed-2013-5 http://www.businessinsider.com/kiera-wilmot-lawyer-hoping-to...

rayiner 13y ago
The murder rate in the U.S. is 16x that of Iceland, 8x that of Norway, 6x that of Germany, and 4-5x that of the Netherlands or France or the UK.
- xyzzyz 13y ago
  Well, if you're on the third strike, you might as well kill the witness instead let him go, as it does not increase your sentence, but decreases your chance of being caught. Of course, it's not the law that's solely responsible for crazy high crime rates compared to other civilized countries, nevertheless some practices used in US legal system can give a lot of incentive to minor offenders to do things they otherwise wouldn't.
- rbehrends 13y ago
  Yes, but the US robbery rate is lower than in England, and the crime rates in many other categories are comparable [1] to what you find in the EU. Intentional homicides make up only a small fraction of all crime. Crime tends to be more lethal in the US, not (that much) more frequent. [1] http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/data.html http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/d...
  - rayiner 13y ago
    For various reasons, homicide is the easiest reported statistic to compare between countries. In any case, it's not robbery rates that drive the votes of scared suburbanites. Newspapers don't talk about which big city is the carjacking capital of the U.S.
    - rbehrends 13y ago
      No principal disagreement, but I am not sure how that relates to your original claim that "[h]omogenous countries with low levels of social dysfunction and high social cohesion have an easier time dealing with prisoners"?
      - rayiner 13y ago
        The purpose of imprisonment, indeed, of the whole justice system, is to replace what would otherwise be mob justice. Of the various academic characteristics of the justice system: retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence, the former is arguably the most important one, or at least the one that most directly animates the existence of the justice system. From that point of view, what is most relevant is peoples' perception of crime, and peoples' perception of the criminals, not necessarily actual crime rates. When people see sky-high murder rates, a crime that is considered the most grievous one possible and the kind of crime that becomes a focal point for the public discourse, and when they don't feel a social bond with the people convicted of crimes, they will not be satisfied by the kind of more lenient prison sentences and conditions you see in European countries. The middle aged suburban voter is not interested in the rehabilitative aspect of the justice system, the aspect that reintegrates criminals into society, because that criminal was never part of that suburbanite's society to begin with. That voter is merely interested in retribution. At the same time, the criminal doesn't see the situation any differently. He has no faith in the institutions of society. He knows that he will never be considered a part of the broader society, so his incentive to really try to be rehabilitated vanishes. So the recidivism rate in the U.S. is double or triple that of places like Norway: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/25/277771/norway-is-safe http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/25/277771/norway-is.... Contrast Norway: http://blog.nj.com/perspective/2011/07/crime_and_punishment_in_norway.html http://blog.nj.com/perspective/2011/07/crime_and_punishment_... ("As Norwegians view it, if you’re going to better yourself within a collective society, then you must work within the collective. When it comes to crime, it’s not about the individual. It’s about what — as a society — they did wrong, and what they can correct, and how they can address this politically.") Now, to circle back to my point: what creates these attitudes? Are Norwegians just better people than Americans? I don't think that's the case. I think the root of the difference is that Americans don't think of everyone as being part of the same collective. Partly because of cultural reasons, and partly because of historical reasons. The lack of homogeneity and social cohesion is a major part of what creates the attitudes. Segregation, in particular, has left an indelible imprint on modern American society. After all, much of the country was forcibly desegregated just two generations ago. To put it bluntly, when a black (or hispanic) kid in inner-Baltimore commits a crime, the white voters in suburban Maryland don't ask themselves, like the Norwegians do, "what did society do wrong? How can we correct the problem?"
- newnewnew 13y ago
  It's worth noting that 7% of the US population commits 53% of the murders. Can you guess which demographic group that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not descended from Europeans. So even if you eliminated all the crime committed by European-descended Americans, America would still have a higher crime rate than European countries. Europeans who criticize America often imagine it to be a country of European colonists. That's increasingly not true. European multiculturalists also expect that a person's cultural background will have zero influence on them. That is also not true.
  - leephillips 13y ago
    There is no demographic group in the US as large as 7% that is not "descended from Europeans". If that is incorrect, then I need more hints, or perhaps you could be courageous enough to name it. We almost all have significant European ancestry, and every human is descended from Africans.
    - newnewnew 13y ago
      http://takimag.com/article/guns_and_race_steve_sailer/print http://takimag.com/article/guns_and_race_steve_sailer/print
      - leephillips 13y ago
        There is nothing there about a demographic group not descended from Europeans, so if that link is an attempt to reply, it fails.
        deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
        newnewnew 13y ago
        If you're being pedantic, it is true that African Americans have on average about 30% European genetic admixture. The facts presented are still quite striking, no?

rayiner 13y ago

The murder rate in the U.S. is 16x that of Iceland, 8x that of Norway, 6x that of Germany, and 4-5x that of the Netherlands or France or the UK.

xyzzyz 13y ago
Well, if you're on the third strike, you might as well kill the witness instead let him go, as it does not increase your sentence, but decreases your chance of being caught. Of course, it's not the law that's solely responsible for crazy high crime rates compared to other civilized countries, nevertheless some practices used in US legal system can give a lot of incentive to minor offenders to do things they otherwise wouldn't.
rbehrends 13y ago
Yes, but the US robbery rate is lower than in England, and the crime rates in many other categories are comparable [1] to what you find in the EU. Intentional homicides make up only a small fraction of all crime. Crime tends to be more lethal in the US, not (that much) more frequent. [1] http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/data.html http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/d...
- rayiner 13y ago
  For various reasons, homicide is the easiest reported statistic to compare between countries. In any case, it's not robbery rates that drive the votes of scared suburbanites. Newspapers don't talk about which big city is the carjacking capital of the U.S.
  - rbehrends 13y ago
    No principal disagreement, but I am not sure how that relates to your original claim that "[h]omogenous countries with low levels of social dysfunction and high social cohesion have an easier time dealing with prisoners"?
    - rayiner 13y ago
      The purpose of imprisonment, indeed, of the whole justice system, is to replace what would otherwise be mob justice. Of the various academic characteristics of the justice system: retribution, rehabilitation, deterrence, the former is arguably the most important one, or at least the one that most directly animates the existence of the justice system. From that point of view, what is most relevant is peoples' perception of crime, and peoples' perception of the criminals, not necessarily actual crime rates. When people see sky-high murder rates, a crime that is considered the most grievous one possible and the kind of crime that becomes a focal point for the public discourse, and when they don't feel a social bond with the people convicted of crimes, they will not be satisfied by the kind of more lenient prison sentences and conditions you see in European countries. The middle aged suburban voter is not interested in the rehabilitative aspect of the justice system, the aspect that reintegrates criminals into society, because that criminal was never part of that suburbanite's society to begin with. That voter is merely interested in retribution. At the same time, the criminal doesn't see the situation any differently. He has no faith in the institutions of society. He knows that he will never be considered a part of the broader society, so his incentive to really try to be rehabilitated vanishes. So the recidivism rate in the U.S. is double or triple that of places like Norway: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/25/277771/norway-is-safe http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/07/25/277771/norway-is.... Contrast Norway: http://blog.nj.com/perspective/2011/07/crime_and_punishment_in_norway.html http://blog.nj.com/perspective/2011/07/crime_and_punishment_... ("As Norwegians view it, if you’re going to better yourself within a collective society, then you must work within the collective. When it comes to crime, it’s not about the individual. It’s about what — as a society — they did wrong, and what they can correct, and how they can address this politically.") Now, to circle back to my point: what creates these attitudes? Are Norwegians just better people than Americans? I don't think that's the case. I think the root of the difference is that Americans don't think of everyone as being part of the same collective. Partly because of cultural reasons, and partly because of historical reasons. The lack of homogeneity and social cohesion is a major part of what creates the attitudes. Segregation, in particular, has left an indelible imprint on modern American society. After all, much of the country was forcibly desegregated just two generations ago. To put it bluntly, when a black (or hispanic) kid in inner-Baltimore commits a crime, the white voters in suburban Maryland don't ask themselves, like the Norwegians do, "what did society do wrong? How can we correct the problem?"
newnewnew 13y ago
It's worth noting that 7% of the US population commits 53% of the murders. Can you guess which demographic group that is? I'll give you a hint, it's not descended from Europeans. So even if you eliminated all the crime committed by European-descended Americans, America would still have a higher crime rate than European countries. Europeans who criticize America often imagine it to be a country of European colonists. That's increasingly not true. European multiculturalists also expect that a person's cultural background will have zero influence on them. That is also not true.
- leephillips 13y ago
  There is no demographic group in the US as large as 7% that is not "descended from Europeans". If that is incorrect, then I need more hints, or perhaps you could be courageous enough to name it. We almost all have significant European ancestry, and every human is descended from Africans.
  - newnewnew 13y ago
    http://takimag.com/article/guns_and_race_steve_sailer/print http://takimag.com/article/guns_and_race_steve_sailer/print
    - leephillips 13y ago
      There is nothing there about a demographic group not descended from Europeans, so if that link is an attempt to reply, it fails.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - newnewnew 13y ago
        If you're being pedantic, it is true that African Americans have on average about 30% European genetic admixture. The facts presented are still quite striking, no?