4 ms·

Going to prison shouldn't be about punishment. It should be about rehabilitation.

by falk 13y ago

jwoah12 13y ago
Just to play devil's advocate, are you positive you'd have the same view if someone murdered your spouse? Sexually assaulted your daughter? Beat the hell out of your mother?
- kybernetikos 13y ago
  And to play angels advocate, are you positive you'd have the same view if your spouse murdered someone? Your daughter sexually assaulted someone? Your mother beat the hell out of someone?
- Xylakant 13y ago
  This is exactly why society as a whole gets to decide instead of the victim or relatives of the victim. It's human that harm done to you or a close person is hard to forgive, but societies goals differ from the goals of the individual: The individuals goal is revenge, the societies goal is to keep the crime rate low. Part of that is betterment of offenders since it keeps the rate of recidivism lower, thus creates less future victims. It's certainly unfortunate that the two goals are not perfectly aligned. However, given human behaviour as it is your question is misleading the discussion: The answer is probably "no" and still, society should choose a different way.
  - jwoah12 13y ago
    Yes, we completely agree. My point isn't that society should look to punish people instead of rehabilitate them. It's that it is human nature to want to punish people, and it takes a special kind of person to see past that and do what is best for society. The average highly-educated, often idealist member of our little community may be able to do it, but I have no faith that a random American would.
  - gadders 13y ago
    But surely their should be some dis-incentive for committing a crime? Supposing their existed a "rehabilitation pill" and taking it instantly prevented someone from committing the same crime again. What if someone then killed your child or partner? Would you be happy for them to take the tablet and be immediately released?
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      You're misreading my statement. Part of the solution is betterment, but it's by far not the only part. The second major goal of prison is punishment (nb: not revenge), effectively deterrent. However, the punishment must be adequate to the crime committed and human. Making prison as cruel as possible does not serve that goal. The punishment consists in loosing your freedom, not in getting raped or tortured. Btw: In such a future you're describing we surely have ways of preventing crimes just as effective as the pill that turns a murderer into a good member of society.
      - gadders 13y ago
        Fair enough. Some people here seem to be arguing there is no place for punishment at all. I think there is, but humane punishment. Not dumping people into a human shark tank.
- falk 13y ago
  Maybe. Maybe not. If any of those things did happen I most likely wouldn't be thinking logically, so I'm not sure how much weight my opinion should carry. My thought process right now is that it does absolutely no good treating prisoners inhumane. As soon as they get out and they can't find a job because they have a criminal record and no current job experience they will turn directly back to crime. Now we have to waste money and resources on them again. Not to mention that they could cause more harm to other people. It really does no one any good.
- girvo 13y ago
  I'm not the OP, but I discussed this in a philosophy class. My answer was yes back then. Later in life, this belief was tested, badly. My answer was still yes. According to the philosophy classes survey, I'm not in the majority for this view. I thought that was interesting.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Of course not. But you do know why this is a terrible point, right? This is exactly why we have courts; to deliver justice over vengeance, having proven guilt. Victims and offenders are extremes. Victims want maximum sentencing for vengeance and punishment, offenders want maximum mercy. Neither is likely to be fair to the other. Courts are there to moderate and hand out fair rulings based on societies agreed laws. (yes I know many have problems with laws, but thats a totally different discussion) Your point relies on the notion that because as a victim we would want maximum punishment for vengeance, that is how the law and justice system should be. Well, no, it is the exact opposite. You must have heard the opposite argument : What if you and your family were starving, would you steal to eat? Would you kill to steal so that your child might eat? Exact same logic, just opposite. Now we can argue for a very lenient justice system, right? Well, the justice system sits squarely int he middle of both. Its must give out fair punishment. Its must be fair to BOTH sides. This type of point is as bad and manipulative as the "what have you got to hide" routine. IMHO, its an abuse of language and the people its used against. It is politician talk.
ianstallings 13y ago
No it should be about ensuring the safety of society. Rehab might be part of that but removing and punishing the criminal is also part of it.
- falk 13y ago
  What about the massive amount of non-violent drug offenders in jail?
  - mpyne 13y ago
    I don't think there's anyone here on HN who doesn't agree that 'hardened marijuana users' probably don't belong in prison. But once you pick that low-hanging fruit of prison reform, does the original point still apply or not?
TeMPOraL 13y ago
Why? Shouldn't be about punishment so harsh that it becomes an effective deterrant, and thus protection for society against future crimes?

Going to prison shouldn't be about punishment. It should be about rehabilitation.

by falk 13y ago

Going to prison shouldn't be about punishment. It should be about rehabilitation.

Just to play devil's advocate, are you positive you'd have the same view if someone murdered your spouse? Sexually assaulted your daughter? Beat the hell out of your mother?

kybernetikos 13y ago
And to play angels advocate, are you positive you'd have the same view if your spouse murdered someone? Your daughter sexually assaulted someone? Your mother beat the hell out of someone?
Xylakant 13y ago
This is exactly why society as a whole gets to decide instead of the victim or relatives of the victim. It's human that harm done to you or a close person is hard to forgive, but societies goals differ from the goals of the individual: The individuals goal is revenge, the societies goal is to keep the crime rate low. Part of that is betterment of offenders since it keeps the rate of recidivism lower, thus creates less future victims. It's certainly unfortunate that the two goals are not perfectly aligned. However, given human behaviour as it is your question is misleading the discussion: The answer is probably "no" and still, society should choose a different way.
- jwoah12 13y ago
  Yes, we completely agree. My point isn't that society should look to punish people instead of rehabilitate them. It's that it is human nature to want to punish people, and it takes a special kind of person to see past that and do what is best for society. The average highly-educated, often idealist member of our little community may be able to do it, but I have no faith that a random American would.
- gadders 13y ago
  But surely their should be some dis-incentive for committing a crime? Supposing their existed a "rehabilitation pill" and taking it instantly prevented someone from committing the same crime again. What if someone then killed your child or partner? Would you be happy for them to take the tablet and be immediately released?
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    You're misreading my statement. Part of the solution is betterment, but it's by far not the only part. The second major goal of prison is punishment (nb: not revenge), effectively deterrent. However, the punishment must be adequate to the crime committed and human. Making prison as cruel as possible does not serve that goal. The punishment consists in loosing your freedom, not in getting raped or tortured. Btw: In such a future you're describing we surely have ways of preventing crimes just as effective as the pill that turns a murderer into a good member of society.
    - gadders 13y ago
      Fair enough. Some people here seem to be arguing there is no place for punishment at all. I think there is, but humane punishment. Not dumping people into a human shark tank.
falk 13y ago
Maybe. Maybe not. If any of those things did happen I most likely wouldn't be thinking logically, so I'm not sure how much weight my opinion should carry. My thought process right now is that it does absolutely no good treating prisoners inhumane. As soon as they get out and they can't find a job because they have a criminal record and no current job experience they will turn directly back to crime. Now we have to waste money and resources on them again. Not to mention that they could cause more harm to other people. It really does no one any good.
girvo 13y ago
I'm not the OP, but I discussed this in a philosophy class. My answer was yes back then. Later in life, this belief was tested, badly. My answer was still yes. According to the philosophy classes survey, I'm not in the majority for this view. I thought that was interesting.
alan_cx 13y ago
Of course not. But you do know why this is a terrible point, right? This is exactly why we have courts; to deliver justice over vengeance, having proven guilt. Victims and offenders are extremes. Victims want maximum sentencing for vengeance and punishment, offenders want maximum mercy. Neither is likely to be fair to the other. Courts are there to moderate and hand out fair rulings based on societies agreed laws. (yes I know many have problems with laws, but thats a totally different discussion) Your point relies on the notion that because as a victim we would want maximum punishment for vengeance, that is how the law and justice system should be. Well, no, it is the exact opposite. You must have heard the opposite argument : What if you and your family were starving, would you steal to eat? Would you kill to steal so that your child might eat? Exact same logic, just opposite. Now we can argue for a very lenient justice system, right? Well, the justice system sits squarely int he middle of both. Its must give out fair punishment. Its must be fair to BOTH sides. This type of point is as bad and manipulative as the "what have you got to hide" routine. IMHO, its an abuse of language and the people its used against. It is politician talk.

ianstallings 13y ago

No it should be about ensuring the safety of society. Rehab might be part of that but removing and punishing the criminal is also part of it.

falk 13y ago
What about the massive amount of non-violent drug offenders in jail?
- mpyne 13y ago
  I don't think there's anyone here on HN who doesn't agree that 'hardened marijuana users' probably don't belong in prison. But once you pick that low-hanging fruit of prison reform, does the original point still apply or not?

TeMPOraL 13y ago

Why? Shouldn't be about punishment so harsh that it becomes an effective deterrant, and thus protection for society against future crimes?