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It's not just that they're stealing everyone's privacy. They're acting like "it's foreigners, so we don't have to care" - even the latests attempts to rein in N

It's not just that they're stealing everyone's privacy. They're acting like "it's foreigners, so we don't have to care" - even the latests attempts to rein in NSA make no effort to cut back its international misbehavior. Basically, I think most civilized people have been operating on the premise that democratic western states are behaving in a vaguely civilized way towards people in other such states. But it's clear that America at least is behaving like the purest sociopath, where "friends" just means "easier to manipulate". They are breaking the unspoken international social contract, and it is going to have worse repercussions than they yet understand.

duaneb 13y ago
> America The American government, you mean.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  Are you so sure the government is opposed to the public in this?
  - duaneb 13y ago
    No, but I think it's foolish to assume it isn't.
- return0 13y ago
  For us foreigners, knowing that America has strong democratic roots, it is obvious (and worrying) that the majority of american citizens actually agree with that.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    Well, as a republic, the government is usually about 2 years out of sync with the public: we won't actually get a chance to yell at them until next election.
  - crocowhile 13y ago
    Well, can't blame the electorate this time: Obama is doing the opposite of what he always promised and got elected for.
    - smsm42 13y ago
      That argument would be very convincing if Obama weren't elected twice. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
      - vacri 13y ago
        You make it sound like there was a viable alternative, like the other party in the two-party system wasn't being held to ransom by ultra-nationalists.
        smsm42 13y ago
        That's because it is exactly the situation. Nobody is "held ransom" by anybody. But voters that think like you - low-information voters that can vote for anybody provided that he is "our guy" because "their guy" is The Devil himself - are exactly the reason why it happens again and again. And will happen until the majority abandons such mentality - which I personally wouldn't expect happening any time soon.
        vacri 13y ago
        Voters that think like me live in a multipolar democracy that currently has a minority government in power. It's a tacit weakness of the US system that there can only be two viable parties. "If everyone changed and voted for a third person" is not a retort, because it still requires everyone jumping on the same bandwagon to effect a win; it'll just be a different brand of wagon.
        Volpe 13y ago
        It's a two party system, but the two parties don't have to be the same ones that are their now. I don't understand the "viable alternative" arguement. You are saying "I won't vote for who I really want to vote, because they'll never win, because everyone else won't vote for them" <--- Is that what you mean? That seems self defeating. ...
  - Cthulhu_ 13y ago
    And yet, the vast majority of US citizens still agrees. I mean, they have the right to bear arms so that when they strongly disagree with their government, they can form an army and overthrow it (or something, whatever that amendment is for). If not that, at the very least they can strongly protest against the decisions and policy made, vote for a third party and break the two-party system, or vote / demand the voting and government system to be upturned to stop having to choose for the lesser or two evils in the form of a single man who will get most of the blame and responsibility for poor governmental decisions.
  - jebblue 13y ago
    >> America has strong democratic roots No, America has strong American roots. Democracies and Republics both corrupt themselves over time. America is unlike any other nation on earth, it's a hybrid, a democratic republic.
travislm 13y ago
The word 'sociopath' describes these actions very well. Considering that the United States is in a state of enduring war, and considering that all of the effort to monitor the internet comes from a desire to strengthen national security (which is a vital concern), it makes sense for the United States to behave this way. After all, what is war other than purely sociopathic behavior? The monitoring of the internet is just an extension of these behaviors which manifest themselves during wartime.
- JulianMorrison 13y ago
  The USA has never not been at war against somebody or something in living memory, counting the cold war and the drug war. If you'll let it off the leash entirely in "wartime", well, then the leash was never there.
  - travislm 13y ago
    The nature of the war on terror has legitimized this type of behavior. Specifically, the nature of terrorism seems to motivate the United States government to go to great lengths in order to cause damage to an enemy that is largely immune to defeat, for cultural and religious reasons. Drones are a great example of how far they will go. The use of nuclear bombs signaled the end of world war two. Maybe the Obama administration is hopeful that surveillance of all communication is the final step towards a resolution of this war. That's not legitimate in my eyes, but oh well (i certainly don't know the solution). On top of everything else that has happened, zero expectation of privacy seems to be the equivalent of the nuclear option at this point.

duaneb 13y ago

> America The American government, you mean.

JulianMorrison 13y ago
Are you so sure the government is opposed to the public in this?
- duaneb 13y ago
  No, but I think it's foolish to assume it isn't.
return0 13y ago
For us foreigners, knowing that America has strong democratic roots, it is obvious (and worrying) that the majority of american citizens actually agree with that.
- duaneb 13y ago
  Well, as a republic, the government is usually about 2 years out of sync with the public: we won't actually get a chance to yell at them until next election.
- crocowhile 13y ago
  Well, can't blame the electorate this time: Obama is doing the opposite of what he always promised and got elected for.
  - smsm42 13y ago
    That argument would be very convincing if Obama weren't elected twice. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice...
    - vacri 13y ago
      You make it sound like there was a viable alternative, like the other party in the two-party system wasn't being held to ransom by ultra-nationalists.
      - smsm42 13y ago
        That's because it is exactly the situation. Nobody is "held ransom" by anybody. But voters that think like you - low-information voters that can vote for anybody provided that he is "our guy" because "their guy" is The Devil himself - are exactly the reason why it happens again and again. And will happen until the majority abandons such mentality - which I personally wouldn't expect happening any time soon.
        vacri 13y ago
        Voters that think like me live in a multipolar democracy that currently has a minority government in power. It's a tacit weakness of the US system that there can only be two viable parties. "If everyone changed and voted for a third person" is not a retort, because it still requires everyone jumping on the same bandwagon to effect a win; it'll just be a different brand of wagon.
        Volpe 13y ago
        It's a two party system, but the two parties don't have to be the same ones that are their now. I don't understand the "viable alternative" arguement. You are saying "I won't vote for who I really want to vote, because they'll never win, because everyone else won't vote for them" <--- Is that what you mean? That seems self defeating. ...
- Cthulhu_ 13y ago
  And yet, the vast majority of US citizens still agrees. I mean, they have the right to bear arms so that when they strongly disagree with their government, they can form an army and overthrow it (or something, whatever that amendment is for). If not that, at the very least they can strongly protest against the decisions and policy made, vote for a third party and break the two-party system, or vote / demand the voting and government system to be upturned to stop having to choose for the lesser or two evils in the form of a single man who will get most of the blame and responsibility for poor governmental decisions.
- jebblue 13y ago
  >> America has strong democratic roots No, America has strong American roots. Democracies and Republics both corrupt themselves over time. America is unlike any other nation on earth, it's a hybrid, a democratic republic.

travislm 13y ago

The word 'sociopath' describes these actions very well. Considering that the United States is in a state of enduring war, and considering that all of the effort to monitor the internet comes from a desire to strengthen national security (which is a vital concern), it makes sense for the United States to behave this way. After all, what is war other than purely sociopathic behavior? The monitoring of the internet is just an extension of these behaviors which manifest themselves during wartime.

JulianMorrison 13y ago
The USA has never not been at war against somebody or something in living memory, counting the cold war and the drug war. If you'll let it off the leash entirely in "wartime", well, then the leash was never there.
- travislm 13y ago
  The nature of the war on terror has legitimized this type of behavior. Specifically, the nature of terrorism seems to motivate the United States government to go to great lengths in order to cause damage to an enemy that is largely immune to defeat, for cultural and religious reasons. Drones are a great example of how far they will go. The use of nuclear bombs signaled the end of world war two. Maybe the Obama administration is hopeful that surveillance of all communication is the final step towards a resolution of this war. That's not legitimate in my eyes, but oh well (i certainly don't know the solution). On top of everything else that has happened, zero expectation of privacy seems to be the equivalent of the nuclear option at this point.