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From a comment: >I don’t want to fix KA. I don’t think it is possible to do so given Sal Khan. Sal Khan should not be the voice on his videos. He should not be

by dictum 13y ago

From a comment: >I don’t want to fix KA. I don’t think it is possible to do so given Sal Khan. Sal Khan should not be the voice on his videos. He should not be the person putting together the actual content of his videos. And, I suspect, he should not be making any important decisions about either content or delivery of instruction, from the pedagogical side of the operation. I’m sure he’s a competent business/finance guy, but as long as he is engaged in making these borefests, they will be third-rate at best That, friends, is why the "best minds of [this] generation are thinking about how to make people click ads".[1] That is why we're stuck building photo-sharing apps: because no good deed goes unpunished. [1] http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_17/b4225060960537.htm http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_17/b42250609...

adamzerner 13y ago
Eh, I don't really think that's why people are reluctant to do good/big things. I think the core reason is because it's a cached thought (http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/) to make safe and familiar choices in life.
mkr-hn 13y ago
It's a valid criticism. His videos are boring, but they're still some of the clearest instruction I've found, especially on math. I just have trouble staying awake through them.
- eshvk 13y ago
  No. It is opinion at best. _You_ think his videos are boring; I find them engaging but not precise enough.
  - mkr-hn 13y ago
    Yes. This is what we're doing here. Sharing our opinions. We rarely have the benefit of solid fact when criticizing things.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - incision 13y ago
      Is English your first language? Saying that "A are B", particularly with emphasis and without a qualifying introduction isn't a typical way of expressing an opinion.
      - mkr-hn 13y ago
        English is my first language, and I'm decent at it. "Boring" is inherently subjective, so stating that it's an opinion would be redundant. I don't usually need to open a statement like that with "It is in my opinion that..." to make it clear that it's an opinion. This is a weird outlier where a few people are taking it to be a statement of fact. At least as many picked up on the fact that it's an opinion without extra words.
        incision 13y ago
        >"This is a weird outlier where a few people are taking it to be a statement of fact." I actually agree with you in general, but I don't agree with that bit. I'd say that kind of interpretation is par for the course, particularly on the Internet. I expect it probably has about the same interpretation spread as sarcasm. Some get it, some don't, many learn to simply avoid it. It would be nice everyone could understand and respect what all is inherently subjective, both in statement and response. Imagine many wars of politics, religion, culture and choice of smartphone would disappear overnight. Until that happens, a simple "IMO" goes a long way.
        Symmetry 13y ago
        Boring is generally a subjective word and when someone say "these are boring" I interpret that to mean that that's just their opinion. But when says "these are boring" I interpret that as the writer trying to overcome the inherent subjectivity of 'boring' by emphasizing the objective 'are', saying in effect "I found this boring and I expect almost any other reasonable person would too."
  - badman_ting 13y ago
    Strangely enough, opinion works as criticism. We're all just stating opinions here, including you. Get over yourself.
    - pjscott 13y ago
      Has appending the phrase "Get over yourself" to an argument ever accomplished anything useful?
- goostavos 13y ago
  Just goes to show that different people like different things (which seems to be forgotten sometimes). personally, I think his videos are fantastic, and quite the furthest thing from boring.
clicks 13y ago
I find that pretty infuriating. I'm reminded now of some years ago when I was in differential equations class and had trouble understanding my professor (his handwriting was terrible and incomprehensible, and his lesson structure very hard to follow). Khan's videos were an absolute blessing to me then. In regards to the criticisms: as valid as they may be, don't assert that his offerings are not good -- it's better that they exist vs. not existing. We're at a more evolved state now with having had Khan's videos: now a new player can emerge who can produce better videos with the knowledge of what Khan's mistakes were. I think it's actually a little bit irresponsible criticizing Khan's video like this in a public and confrontational way: it adds to the hysteria, now you'll have parents actively avoiding Khan's videos because of concerns of their pedagogical techniques. And that's not good: have you opened a standard calculus book these days? It's very hard to follow, don't these folks have some criticism for those (and their high prices, which often make it unaffordable for a lot of folks)? Video form of learning is still rather new, and Khan is a pioneer of it. Give it some more time to find its optimum form.
smnrchrds 13y ago
I used to teach English as a foreign language for a little while. My students were kids 10-13 years old. The most difficult task was to teach them things they were previously taught incorrectly. For example, I was struggling the whole semester to convince them "pizza" is pronounced "peetsə" although there is no visible "t" in it. The reason: Their last teacher told them it was pronounced "peeza". No matter how much I tried, they always went back to their pronunciation and thought I was an idiot. As people working in tech, we are familiar with the concept of unlearning. Sometimes to make things right, we have to unlearn what we have learned and start from scratch. Unlearning is something that comes with experience. It's very hard for children to unlearn. You have to be careful what you say to them, because they're going to believe it for a long time. I think what the OP is worried about is if these videos are someone's first introduction to math, they will struggle in this subject for foreseeable future.
- runarberg 13y ago
  > The most difficult task was to teach them things they were previously taught incorrectly. That is an easy thing to fix. If they take everything the teacher tells them at face value, they are bound to to repeat silly errors (and worse, biases,) in the teachers knowledge. If you teach them that the teacher might err (including you), then it is so much easier for you to demonstrate how they know wrong. Even better, if you fail at something while teaching (everybody do), they will be more likely to correct you, and you will learn something from them.
gruseom 13y ago
Trolls on the internet cause the best minds not to work on important problems? That can't be right. It's almost a self-contradiction.
- dictum 13y ago
  This is not what I'm arguing. There are many different incentives for someone to do something: money, fame, respect from certain groups, the belief that you're doing something good, influence, following the wishes of your relatives/friends/mentors, economic stability or mobility, sense of entrepreneurship or ownership... Now, everyone is entitled to their opinion and maybe I'm too sensitive to these things, but when someone abandons a lucrative career to start recording videos to help children and adults learn math and other subjects, and his enterprise gets popular because people got something from those videos, I believe this person deserves better than to be effectively fired from what he built. Sal Khan isn't the best teacher. He's not a substitute for a great teacher. But he did something no teacher, parent or student had done before. And now anyone can start a website like Khan started, record better videos and create better exercises. Maybe we'll see a Khan Academy-like CMS to help people do that. It's not that nitpicks and criticism makes people not work on important problems, it's that if you can't even keep control of a project you started, even though it became popular and bigger than you, we're essentially left with money and recognition as the only rewards to do something. Jane Doe starts a YouTube channel with math lessons, gets some praise and some flak. Jane Q. Public makes a cat photo app, gets some praise and some flak. The photo app gets moderately successful, gets some VC money. If Jane Q. Public is ousted, at least she has the money, if that makes her happy. The math lessons channel gets moderately successful and people want Jane Doe off, no money, no recognition, and she fades into obscurity.
tptacek 13y ago
Despite what your comment says, it is not actually the case that people build cat picture apps because they'd be criticized for trying to build something more meaningful.
shadowfox 13y ago
As if working to make people click ads doesn't draw any criticism :P

by dictum 13y ago

adamzerner 13y ago

Eh, I don't really think that's why people are reluctant to do good/big things. I think the core reason is because it's a cached thought (http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/k5/cached_thoughts/) to make safe and familiar choices in life.

mkr-hn 13y ago

It's a valid criticism. His videos are boring, but they're still some of the clearest instruction I've found, especially on math. I just have trouble staying awake through them.

eshvk 13y ago
No. It is opinion at best. _You_ think his videos are boring; I find them engaging but not precise enough.
- mkr-hn 13y ago
  Yes. This is what we're doing here. Sharing our opinions. We rarely have the benefit of solid fact when criticizing things.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - incision 13y ago
    Is English your first language? Saying that "A are B", particularly with emphasis and without a qualifying introduction isn't a typical way of expressing an opinion.
    - mkr-hn 13y ago
      English is my first language, and I'm decent at it. "Boring" is inherently subjective, so stating that it's an opinion would be redundant. I don't usually need to open a statement like that with "It is in my opinion that..." to make it clear that it's an opinion. This is a weird outlier where a few people are taking it to be a statement of fact. At least as many picked up on the fact that it's an opinion without extra words.
      - incision 13y ago
        >"This is a weird outlier where a few people are taking it to be a statement of fact." I actually agree with you in general, but I don't agree with that bit. I'd say that kind of interpretation is par for the course, particularly on the Internet. I expect it probably has about the same interpretation spread as sarcasm. Some get it, some don't, many learn to simply avoid it. It would be nice everyone could understand and respect what all is inherently subjective, both in statement and response. Imagine many wars of politics, religion, culture and choice of smartphone would disappear overnight. Until that happens, a simple "IMO" goes a long way.
      - Symmetry 13y ago
        Boring is generally a subjective word and when someone say "these are boring" I interpret that to mean that that's just their opinion. But when says "these are boring" I interpret that as the writer trying to overcome the inherent subjectivity of 'boring' by emphasizing the objective 'are', saying in effect "I found this boring and I expect almost any other reasonable person would too."
- badman_ting 13y ago
  Strangely enough, opinion works as criticism. We're all just stating opinions here, including you. Get over yourself.
  - pjscott 13y ago
    Has appending the phrase "Get over yourself" to an argument ever accomplished anything useful?
goostavos 13y ago
Just goes to show that different people like different things (which seems to be forgotten sometimes). personally, I think his videos are fantastic, and quite the furthest thing from boring.

clicks 13y ago

I find that pretty infuriating. I'm reminded now of some years ago when I was in differential equations class and had trouble understanding my professor (his handwriting was terrible and incomprehensible, and his lesson structure very hard to follow). Khan's videos were an absolute blessing to me then. In regards to the criticisms: as valid as they may be, don't assert that his offerings are not good -- it's better that they exist vs. not existing. We're at a more evolved state now with having had Khan's videos: now a new player can emerge who can produce better videos with the knowledge of what Khan's mistakes were. I think it's actually a little bit irresponsible criticizing Khan's video like this in a public and confrontational way: it adds to the hysteria, now you'll have parents actively avoiding Khan's videos because of concerns of their pedagogical techniques. And that's not good: have you opened a standard calculus book these days? It's very hard to follow, don't these folks have some criticism for those (and their high prices, which often make it unaffordable for a lot of folks)? Video form of learning is still rather new, and Khan is a pioneer of it. Give it some more time to find its optimum form.

smnrchrds 13y ago

I used to teach English as a foreign language for a little while. My students were kids 10-13 years old. The most difficult task was to teach them things they were previously taught incorrectly. For example, I was struggling the whole semester to convince them "pizza" is pronounced "peetsə" although there is no visible "t" in it. The reason: Their last teacher told them it was pronounced "peeza". No matter how much I tried, they always went back to their pronunciation and thought I was an idiot. As people working in tech, we are familiar with the concept of unlearning. Sometimes to make things right, we have to unlearn what we have learned and start from scratch. Unlearning is something that comes with experience. It's very hard for children to unlearn. You have to be careful what you say to them, because they're going to believe it for a long time. I think what the OP is worried about is if these videos are someone's first introduction to math, they will struggle in this subject for foreseeable future.

runarberg 13y ago
> The most difficult task was to teach them things they were previously taught incorrectly. That is an easy thing to fix. If they take everything the teacher tells them at face value, they are bound to to repeat silly errors (and worse, biases,) in the teachers knowledge. If you teach them that the teacher might err (including you), then it is so much easier for you to demonstrate how they know wrong. Even better, if you fail at something while teaching (everybody do), they will be more likely to correct you, and you will learn something from them.

gruseom 13y ago

Trolls on the internet cause the best minds not to work on important problems? That can't be right. It's almost a self-contradiction.

dictum 13y ago
This is not what I'm arguing. There are many different incentives for someone to do something: money, fame, respect from certain groups, the belief that you're doing something good, influence, following the wishes of your relatives/friends/mentors, economic stability or mobility, sense of entrepreneurship or ownership... Now, everyone is entitled to their opinion and maybe I'm too sensitive to these things, but when someone abandons a lucrative career to start recording videos to help children and adults learn math and other subjects, and his enterprise gets popular because people got something from those videos, I believe this person deserves better than to be effectively fired from what he built. Sal Khan isn't the best teacher. He's not a substitute for a great teacher. But he did something no teacher, parent or student had done before. And now anyone can start a website like Khan started, record better videos and create better exercises. Maybe we'll see a Khan Academy-like CMS to help people do that. It's not that nitpicks and criticism makes people not work on important problems, it's that if you can't even keep control of a project you started, even though it became popular and bigger than you, we're essentially left with money and recognition as the only rewards to do something. Jane Doe starts a YouTube channel with math lessons, gets some praise and some flak. Jane Q. Public makes a cat photo app, gets some praise and some flak. The photo app gets moderately successful, gets some VC money. If Jane Q. Public is ousted, at least she has the money, if that makes her happy. The math lessons channel gets moderately successful and people want Jane Doe off, no money, no recognition, and she fades into obscurity.

tptacek 13y ago

Despite what your comment says, it is not actually the case that people build cat picture apps because they'd be criticized for trying to build something more meaningful.

shadowfox 13y ago

As if working to make people click ads doesn't draw any criticism :P