9 ms·

Bradley Manning case stretches credibility of US computer fraud law

236 points by Libertatea 13y ago

D9u 13y ago
50-year-old military-industrial complex I was disappointed to read that part, as it omits the Congressional portion of the equation as well as fails to make note that said complex is a lot older than 50 years.
- gaadd33 13y ago
  Really? I'm under the impression that it really became a "complex" and gained power post WW2, hence Eisenhower's warning about it. Previously there wasn't that large of a standing army nor that large of a defense contracting industry afaik.
  - D9u 13y ago
    The "complex," which could not operate without the collusion of Congress, was in place prior to the first world war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_Big_Business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_Big_Business http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/2012/04/rudimentry-beginnings-of-military-industrial-complex-from-inception-to-full-blown-world-w-2039403.html http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/2012/04/rudimentry-be... USMC Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler warned us about it in his book, War is a racket. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
    - gaadd33 13y ago
      The military industrial complex isn't "corporatism" specifically. It addresses the relationship between defense/arms companies and the military/congress. Prior to WW1 the US was very isolationist and furthermore, lacked arms manufacturers on a large scale (as percent of gdp) so it seems unlikely they were able to direct significant policy or spending via contributions and bribes. I'm not really seeing any evidence that it predates WW1 (and in significant size, WW2) in the United States from the links you posted. Butler's book appears to be more of an attack on profiteering and the futility of war in general. Given "beforeitsnews" also has "Reptilian Caught Hissing On MSM TV" as its top story, I'm inclined to wonder about the factual basis for what it says.
mdt 13y ago
Ask HN: What are we doing here, guys? We're just going to submit anything anti-NSA, no matter how shit it is? >Do you think that, as a society, the United States has become a basket case? You ... do not live here, nor do any of your readers, nor is it reasonable to diagnose entire societies, though I'm sure it makes you feel smart. How do you work for the media and not understand how the media works? Everything you know about the United States, somebody wanted you to know. Which is what makes your list of grievances so disturbing... it reads like the UK media's primary objective is to boost the national ego.
- mcphilip 13y ago
  I'm an American and agree with the basket case diagnosis. In general, I don't take seriously any comment that quotes the first line of an article and then rages against that one line. It makes me suspect that you haven't read the article and have no business dismissing the entire thing since you found the first line inappropriate.
  - mdt 13y ago
    You can agree with whatever you want; any such claims are inherently flimsy. No matter who you are, you are one person. I don't care, Philip. Nobody cares what you take seriously on the internet. >inappropriate Oh, yeah, reduce my epistemological claims to mere childish offense. Thanks, MC.
    - sillysaurus 13y ago
      Guys, he's trolling. Let's ignore him rather than dignity this further.
- rimantas 13y ago
  Afghans, iraqis and lots of other also do not live in the US. That does not mean that US has no influence on their lives.
- rfrey 13y ago
  A lot of his readers live in the U.S., since U.S. readers can't get news on this from U.S. sources.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
ToothlessJake 13y ago
Compare information (metadata) collected on criminal scofflaws working under the cloak of US government contract against the acts the government finds reason to prosecute others of. I highly recommend ProjectPM[1] started by folks including the US government prosecuted Barrett Brown[2]. As well as Blue Cabinet[3], started by Telecomix, the folks that strove to provide free dial-up to dissidents under digital/physical attack[4] while leaking[5] gigabytes upon gigabytes[6] of BlueCoat surveillance/ISP proxy logs from equipment illegally acquired by Assad. Both sites work under the same premise, from ProjectPM: "Project PM operates this wiki in order to provide a centralized, actionable data set regarding the intelligence contracting industry, the PR industry's interface with totalitarian regimes, the mushrooming infosec/"cybersecurity" industry, and other issues constituting threats to human rights, civic transparency, individual privacy, and the health of democratic institutions." From Blue Cabinet: "The Telecomix Blue Cabinet is a working wiki project to document vendors and manufacturers of surveillance equipment that are used in dictatorships and democracies around the internets." Stored within is a wealth of information of the US government and others hiring mercenaries to spy on children as an example of technical skill for a deal with private entity US Chamber of Commerce as retaliation against Wikileaks[7], amongst other things. The data sources involved include the aforementioned BlueCoat leak as well as the HBGary leak[8]. The data being the excuse to prosecute Barrett Brown of ProjectPM[9]. So do be careful unless you like being on an absurd amount of lists. Activity such as deploying exploits on an unknowable amount of users, hacking of dissidents, _the government itself referring private entities like US Chamber of Commerce/Bank of America to the same firms it uses for surveillance work, as to target journalists like Glenn Greenwald[7]_. Makes using wget to ex-filtrate files quicker seem downright saintly. [1] http://wiki.project-pm.org/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.project-pm.org/wiki/Main_Page [2] http://www.thenation.com/article/174851/strange-case-barrett-brown http://www.thenation.com/article/174851/strange-case-barrett... [3] http://bluecabinet.info/wiki/Blue_cabinet http://bluecabinet.info/wiki/Blue_cabinet [4] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/jul/07/telecomix-arab-spring http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/jul/07/telecomix-... [5] https://en.rsf.org/syria-syria-using-34-blue-coat-servers-23-05-2013,44664.html https://en.rsf.org/syria-syria-using-34-blue-coat-servers-23... [6] http://bluesmote.com/ http://bluesmote.com/ [7] http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/02/11/143669/chamberleaks-primer/ http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/02/11/143669/chamberle... [8] https://thepiratebay.sx/search/hbgary/0/99/0 https://thepiratebay.sx/search/hbgary/0/99/0 [9] http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/doj-issues-subpoena-for-info-on-barrett-browns-project-pm-site/ http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/doj-issues-subpoe...
jacquesm 13y ago
It's interesting he brought up My Lai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre), there are more recent examples from Iraq that could be used just the same. Immunity from war crimes seems such a weird concept. I think it is the flip side of aggressively prosecuting whistleblowers, it sends a signal to the rest of the people in the employ of the government. 'Even if you do this, we'll protect you' and 'If you do this, we'll hound you forever'. It would be quite refreshing to see a nation-state prosecute its military and contractors (mercenaries, really) suspected of war crimes with the same zeal with which they target whistle-blowers. Regarding the charges relating to computer fraud: This is like wire fraud. It's apparently pretty hard to do anything illegal in the USA without getting a charge of mail / wire fraud attached to it. I figure anything that involves a computer and that displeases someone in an official position is grounds for a computer fraud case. So I think the writers assertion that mailing the same documents in paper form would have had a different effect is wrong. The only thing that I think would change is that computer fraud would be replaced by mail fraud. Manning is being charged with all this mostly because he embarrassed the US administration, not because of any fraud or real life fall out (contrary to earlier claims of lives put at risk and deaths related to the leaks no specific death has been positively linked to the leaks and any such claims were retracted during the case). The Image of the USA has been damaged, the recent NSA leaks damage it further. Instead of asking itself how to remedy the root causes an example is made out of those that stood up. Business as usual, unfortunately.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - smtddr 13y ago
    > No specific death or serious illness has been positively linked to smoking tobacco, either. 1. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/effects_cig_smoking/ http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/healt... 2. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1997/4/9/ban-cigarettes-in-toto-pthe-freshman/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1997/4/9/ban-cigarettes-in... Is there really anyone who somehow denies the evidence of smoking causes harm? I think a better example here would have been cellphones causing cancer. That's still up in the air(though personally, I'm assuming that cellphones are harmful and do my best to keep mine a couple of inches away from my body..... just in case).
dobbsbob 13y ago
The punishment for leaking classified info has always been a life sentence and usually in solitary confinement too like the guys convicted of treason and spying doing life in supermax prison beside the unabomber. Selling weapons to the enemy, wholesale massacre of civillians and pillaging is a slap on the wrist. Manning didn't leak anything top secret either, wonder what is in store for Snowden if they ever catch him. He'll probably get more time than the guy who got 1000 years + life for running a dungeon. What's up with the excessive ridiculous sentences in the US? 136 years... do they keep your corpse in the prison after you die of old age to finish the time?
- marvin 13y ago
  Compare this to Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik, who killed 77 people (overwhelmingly teenagers). He got 21 years in prison with the possibility of indefinite custody if psychiatrists conclude he is still a danger to society at the end of it. And most Norwegians appear to agree to this sentence, which is the maximum permitted by law. There were few calls for harsher sentencing laws when he was convicted. Now imagine how stealing and revealing a few documents which don't harm anyone is multitudes worse than this. US criminal law is just insane.
- batemanesque 13y ago
  the US does have excessive sentencing in some cases but citing figures like 136 years isn't really evidence, as they represent a theoretical maximum sentence which isn't necessarily anywhere near what the suspect will actually receive.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  I too wonder about the comedy sentencing in the US, which clearly is not working it terms of prevention at all. The only think I can come up with is its some sort of replacement for the olde gunslinger vengeance of the wild west era which has yet to be civilized. I also think there is an arrogance that says the US is the best country in the world, and how could any one possibly act against it since what ever it does simply must be good, pure and legal. Anything that dents that image to the rest of the world is treason, some how. It reminds me of extreme religion's reaction to criticism. Which to me it would do since I view the USA as pretty much a religion. So, heretics like Manning will be metaphorically burned at the stake. Such sentences are not justice, they are PR. Interesting to me that Snowden, having witness the Manning case, still felt he had to whistle blow. Tell me how much he believed in his actions.
scotty79 13y ago
"I'm not just thinking of the country's dysfunctional Congress, pathological infatuation with firearms, addiction to litigation, crazy healthcare arrangements, engorged prison system, chronic inequality, 50-year-old military-industrial complex and out-of-control security services. There is also its strange irrationality about the use and abuse of computers." Wow. He pretty much summed all what's wrong. He didn't mention rampant software patents and copyright explicitely but I guess that can be in the "irrationality about the use and abuse of computers".
icantthinkofone 13y ago
It seems like the whole extent of the internet's education is based on articles about the US from the UK newspaper, "The Guardian".
- mtgx 13y ago
  If only US media were better, so we didn't have to read UK or even Russian media for real journalism.
officemonkey 13y ago
Here's the thing: Bradley Manning made a promise and signed a contract to protect classified information. He broke that promise and was found guilty. Unlike Snowden or Daniel Ellsberg, he was indiscriminate in his disclosure. He basically grabbed a bunch of secret stuff and mailed it to Wikileaks. The computer fraud law may need changing, but using Manning instead of Swartz as the poster boy wins absolutely zero hearts and minds.
- IsTom 13y ago
  Yes, because war crimes need to be hidden.
  - batemanesque 13y ago
    except that he didn't leak only specific evidence of war crimes so much as a vast, unfiltered amount of secret (& potentially dangerous) information
  - officemonkey 13y ago
    Yes, because blunt analysis of the Mexican government is a war crime. >U.S. Ambassador Carlos Pascual left Mexico in May 2011 amid furor over leaked cables that angered the Mexican government. Mexican President Felipe Calderon had publicly criticized a cable in which Pacual complained about inefficiency and infighting among Mexican security forces in the campaign against drug cartels. [http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130801/NATION/308010053#ixzz2b0MzYVBF http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130801/NATION/308010053...] I would actually care what happened to Manning if he just released war crime stuff. But he's a goofball who deserves what he got.
  - Khaine 13y ago
    If Manning only released information about war crimes then he would be a true whistle-blower. Instead he released a whole bunch of information, mostly diplomatic cables which had no relevance to war crimes. He has set back protection for genuine whistleblowers because of his actions.
- dlitz 13y ago
alan_cx 13y ago
To be uncharacteristically charitable to the US government, Im not sure any government has credible computer/internet policies. Certainly not here in the UK at least. Partly, I think this is because of the general ignorance of the population. And that is because the mass media see the internet as a threat to it's businesses and demonize the internet at every opportunity. So the general population see shed loads of scare stories which they believe because the have (or had) more trust in the mass media than the internet. How often have we heard the sarcastic phrase: "It must be true, its on the internet"? (Of course my reply is always an equally sarcastic: "It must be true, I read it in a newspaper".)
coldcode 13y ago
What bothers me most about this case is the total absence of responsibility of his superiors. Private in the military do nothing by themselves, should have no access to anything or make any decisions without someone telling them what to do. Basically if a private screws up, the chain of command screwed up. Of course in reality the big guys get away with it, but still someone was in charge of this private and gave him access to top secret information and failed to pay attention to what he was doing. That is the definition of dereliction of your duty as a leader. Yet I've heard nothing about anyone else's punishment (which could be the press simply sucks).
- mpyne 13y ago
  That's true. But the problem is that this particular failing goes essentially all the way to the top. There was a massive pressure to get people with Manning's skills into the military jobs that required clearances. This was such that even the process of getting a clearance got oursourced to contractors (witness the furor around the company that handled Snowden's screening). Even if Manning's immediate supervisor had tried to get him stripped of his clearance for any of the many "red flags", his supervisor would simply have got in trouble instead for doing something to get rid of a warm body in a seat that needed filled.
bayesianhorse 13y ago
The alleged treatment Bradley Manning had before the trial stretches the credibility of US law, period...
steveplace 13y ago
If you are tryiing to persuade people to join a particular issue, it doesn't help when you alienate parts of your readerbase. The first paragraph: > I'm not just thinking of the country's dysfunctional Congress, pathological infatuation with firearms, addiction to litigation, crazy healthcare arrangements, engorged prison system, chronic inequality, 50-year-old military-industrial complex and out-of-control security services. Right there you've already excluded persons who are pro-gun and want to support your cause. This kind of issue transcends a lot of traditional barriers, so it would help if they weren't reconstructed around the argument.
- MRSallee 13y ago
  Yeah, the "pathological infatuation with firearms" bit struck me as out of place among the other issues. I don't own guns, but I'm not afraid of people that do.
  - selectodude 13y ago
    I've found that most people who shoot their peers with guns, don't actually own the gun.
    - smokeyj 13y ago
      It's typically government issued.
      - 001sky 13y ago
        The nature of war has little to do with guns.
- AsymetricCom 13y ago
  > And potentially 136 years for downloading stuff Wow, this makes me want to punch the writer more than any other line, and I pirate regularly. It's obvious that the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act needs reform, maybe that's why the press is having their lamest hacks write about it?

236 points by Libertatea 13y ago

D9u 13y ago

50-year-old military-industrial complex I was disappointed to read that part, as it omits the Congressional portion of the equation as well as fails to make note that said complex is a lot older than 50 years.

gaadd33 13y ago
Really? I'm under the impression that it really became a "complex" and gained power post WW2, hence Eisenhower's warning about it. Previously there wasn't that large of a standing army nor that large of a defense contracting industry afaik.
- D9u 13y ago
  The "complex," which could not operate without the collusion of Congress, was in place prior to the first world war. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_Big_Business http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_and_Big_Business http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/2012/04/rudimentry-beginnings-of-military-industrial-complex-from-inception-to-full-blown-world-w-2039403.html http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/2012/04/rudimentry-be... USMC Maj. Gen. Smedley Butler warned us about it in his book, War is a racket. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
  - gaadd33 13y ago
    The military industrial complex isn't "corporatism" specifically. It addresses the relationship between defense/arms companies and the military/congress. Prior to WW1 the US was very isolationist and furthermore, lacked arms manufacturers on a large scale (as percent of gdp) so it seems unlikely they were able to direct significant policy or spending via contributions and bribes. I'm not really seeing any evidence that it predates WW1 (and in significant size, WW2) in the United States from the links you posted. Butler's book appears to be more of an attack on profiteering and the futility of war in general. Given "beforeitsnews" also has "Reptilian Caught Hissing On MSM TV" as its top story, I'm inclined to wonder about the factual basis for what it says.

mdt 13y ago

Ask HN: What are we doing here, guys? We're just going to submit anything anti-NSA, no matter how shit it is? >Do you think that, as a society, the United States has become a basket case? You ... do not live here, nor do any of your readers, nor is it reasonable to diagnose entire societies, though I'm sure it makes you feel smart. How do you work for the media and not understand how the media works? Everything you know about the United States, somebody wanted you to know. Which is what makes your list of grievances so disturbing... it reads like the UK media's primary objective is to boost the national ego.

mcphilip 13y ago
I'm an American and agree with the basket case diagnosis. In general, I don't take seriously any comment that quotes the first line of an article and then rages against that one line. It makes me suspect that you haven't read the article and have no business dismissing the entire thing since you found the first line inappropriate.
- mdt 13y ago
  You can agree with whatever you want; any such claims are inherently flimsy. No matter who you are, you are one person. I don't care, Philip. Nobody cares what you take seriously on the internet. >inappropriate Oh, yeah, reduce my epistemological claims to mere childish offense. Thanks, MC.
  - sillysaurus 13y ago
    Guys, he's trolling. Let's ignore him rather than dignity this further.
rimantas 13y ago
Afghans, iraqis and lots of other also do not live in the US. That does not mean that US has no influence on their lives.
rfrey 13y ago
A lot of his readers live in the U.S., since U.S. readers can't get news on this from U.S. sources.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

ToothlessJake 13y ago

Compare information (metadata) collected on criminal scofflaws working under the cloak of US government contract against the acts the government finds reason to prosecute others of. I highly recommend ProjectPM[1] started by folks including the US government prosecuted Barrett Brown[2]. As well as Blue Cabinet[3], started by Telecomix, the folks that strove to provide free dial-up to dissidents under digital/physical attack[4] while leaking[5] gigabytes upon gigabytes[6] of BlueCoat surveillance/ISP proxy logs from equipment illegally acquired by Assad. Both sites work under the same premise, from ProjectPM: "Project PM operates this wiki in order to provide a centralized, actionable data set regarding the intelligence contracting industry, the PR industry's interface with totalitarian regimes, the mushrooming infosec/"cybersecurity" industry, and other issues constituting threats to human rights, civic transparency, individual privacy, and the health of democratic institutions." From Blue Cabinet: "The Telecomix Blue Cabinet is a working wiki project to document vendors and manufacturers of surveillance equipment that are used in dictatorships and democracies around the internets." Stored within is a wealth of information of the US government and others hiring mercenaries to spy on children as an example of technical skill for a deal with private entity US Chamber of Commerce as retaliation against Wikileaks[7], amongst other things. The data sources involved include the aforementioned BlueCoat leak as well as the HBGary leak[8]. The data being the excuse to prosecute Barrett Brown of ProjectPM[9]. So do be careful unless you like being on an absurd amount of lists. Activity such as deploying exploits on an unknowable amount of users, hacking of dissidents, _the government itself referring private entities like US Chamber of Commerce/Bank of America to the same firms it uses for surveillance work, as to target journalists like Glenn Greenwald[7]_. Makes using wget to ex-filtrate files quicker seem downright saintly. [1] http://wiki.project-pm.org/wiki/Main_Page http://wiki.project-pm.org/wiki/Main_Page [2] http://www.thenation.com/article/174851/strange-case-barrett-brown http://www.thenation.com/article/174851/strange-case-barrett... [3] http://bluecabinet.info/wiki/Blue_cabinet http://bluecabinet.info/wiki/Blue_cabinet [4] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/jul/07/telecomix-arab-spring http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/jul/07/telecomix-... [5] https://en.rsf.org/syria-syria-using-34-blue-coat-servers-23-05-2013,44664.html https://en.rsf.org/syria-syria-using-34-blue-coat-servers-23... [6] http://bluesmote.com/ http://bluesmote.com/ [7] http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/02/11/143669/chamberleaks-primer/ http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/02/11/143669/chamberle... [8] https://thepiratebay.sx/search/hbgary/0/99/0 https://thepiratebay.sx/search/hbgary/0/99/0 [9] http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/doj-issues-subpoena-for-info-on-barrett-browns-project-pm-site/ http://leaksource.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/doj-issues-subpoe...

jacquesm 13y ago

It's interesting he brought up My Lai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre), there are more recent examples from Iraq that could be used just the same. Immunity from war crimes seems such a weird concept. I think it is the flip side of aggressively prosecuting whistleblowers, it sends a signal to the rest of the people in the employ of the government. 'Even if you do this, we'll protect you' and 'If you do this, we'll hound you forever'. It would be quite refreshing to see a nation-state prosecute its military and contractors (mercenaries, really) suspected of war crimes with the same zeal with which they target whistle-blowers. Regarding the charges relating to computer fraud: This is like wire fraud. It's apparently pretty hard to do anything illegal in the USA without getting a charge of mail / wire fraud attached to it. I figure anything that involves a computer and that displeases someone in an official position is grounds for a computer fraud case. So I think the writers assertion that mailing the same documents in paper form would have had a different effect is wrong. The only thing that I think would change is that computer fraud would be replaced by mail fraud. Manning is being charged with all this mostly because he embarrassed the US administration, not because of any fraud or real life fall out (contrary to earlier claims of lives put at risk and deaths related to the leaks no specific death has been positively linked to the leaks and any such claims were retracted during the case). The Image of the USA has been damaged, the recent NSA leaks damage it further. Instead of asking itself how to remedy the root causes an example is made out of those that stood up. Business as usual, unfortunately.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- smtddr 13y ago
  > No specific death or serious illness has been positively linked to smoking tobacco, either. 1. http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/effects_cig_smoking/ http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/healt... 2. http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1997/4/9/ban-cigarettes-in-toto-pthe-freshman/ http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1997/4/9/ban-cigarettes-in... Is there really anyone who somehow denies the evidence of smoking causes harm? I think a better example here would have been cellphones causing cancer. That's still up in the air(though personally, I'm assuming that cellphones are harmful and do my best to keep mine a couple of inches away from my body..... just in case).

dobbsbob 13y ago

The punishment for leaking classified info has always been a life sentence and usually in solitary confinement too like the guys convicted of treason and spying doing life in supermax prison beside the unabomber. Selling weapons to the enemy, wholesale massacre of civillians and pillaging is a slap on the wrist. Manning didn't leak anything top secret either, wonder what is in store for Snowden if they ever catch him. He'll probably get more time than the guy who got 1000 years + life for running a dungeon. What's up with the excessive ridiculous sentences in the US? 136 years... do they keep your corpse in the prison after you die of old age to finish the time?

marvin 13y ago
Compare this to Norwegian Anders Behring Breivik, who killed 77 people (overwhelmingly teenagers). He got 21 years in prison with the possibility of indefinite custody if psychiatrists conclude he is still a danger to society at the end of it. And most Norwegians appear to agree to this sentence, which is the maximum permitted by law. There were few calls for harsher sentencing laws when he was convicted. Now imagine how stealing and revealing a few documents which don't harm anyone is multitudes worse than this. US criminal law is just insane.
batemanesque 13y ago
the US does have excessive sentencing in some cases but citing figures like 136 years isn't really evidence, as they represent a theoretical maximum sentence which isn't necessarily anywhere near what the suspect will actually receive.
alan_cx 13y ago
I too wonder about the comedy sentencing in the US, which clearly is not working it terms of prevention at all. The only think I can come up with is its some sort of replacement for the olde gunslinger vengeance of the wild west era which has yet to be civilized. I also think there is an arrogance that says the US is the best country in the world, and how could any one possibly act against it since what ever it does simply must be good, pure and legal. Anything that dents that image to the rest of the world is treason, some how. It reminds me of extreme religion's reaction to criticism. Which to me it would do since I view the USA as pretty much a religion. So, heretics like Manning will be metaphorically burned at the stake. Such sentences are not justice, they are PR. Interesting to me that Snowden, having witness the Manning case, still felt he had to whistle blow. Tell me how much he believed in his actions.

scotty79 13y ago

"I'm not just thinking of the country's dysfunctional Congress, pathological infatuation with firearms, addiction to litigation, crazy healthcare arrangements, engorged prison system, chronic inequality, 50-year-old military-industrial complex and out-of-control security services. There is also its strange irrationality about the use and abuse of computers." Wow. He pretty much summed all what's wrong. He didn't mention rampant software patents and copyright explicitely but I guess that can be in the "irrationality about the use and abuse of computers".

icantthinkofone 13y ago

It seems like the whole extent of the internet's education is based on articles about the US from the UK newspaper, "The Guardian".

mtgx 13y ago
If only US media were better, so we didn't have to read UK or even Russian media for real journalism.

officemonkey 13y ago

Here's the thing: Bradley Manning made a promise and signed a contract to protect classified information. He broke that promise and was found guilty. Unlike Snowden or Daniel Ellsberg, he was indiscriminate in his disclosure. He basically grabbed a bunch of secret stuff and mailed it to Wikileaks. The computer fraud law may need changing, but using Manning instead of Swartz as the poster boy wins absolutely zero hearts and minds.

IsTom 13y ago
Yes, because war crimes need to be hidden.
- batemanesque 13y ago
  except that he didn't leak only specific evidence of war crimes so much as a vast, unfiltered amount of secret (& potentially dangerous) information
- officemonkey 13y ago
  Yes, because blunt analysis of the Mexican government is a war crime. >U.S. Ambassador Carlos Pascual left Mexico in May 2011 amid furor over leaked cables that angered the Mexican government. Mexican President Felipe Calderon had publicly criticized a cable in which Pacual complained about inefficiency and infighting among Mexican security forces in the campaign against drug cartels. [http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130801/NATION/308010053#ixzz2b0MzYVBF http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130801/NATION/308010053...] I would actually care what happened to Manning if he just released war crime stuff. But he's a goofball who deserves what he got.
- Khaine 13y ago
  If Manning only released information about war crimes then he would be a true whistle-blower. Instead he released a whole bunch of information, mostly diplomatic cables which had no relevance to war crimes. He has set back protection for genuine whistleblowers because of his actions.
dlitz 13y ago

alan_cx 13y ago

To be uncharacteristically charitable to the US government, Im not sure any government has credible computer/internet policies. Certainly not here in the UK at least. Partly, I think this is because of the general ignorance of the population. And that is because the mass media see the internet as a threat to it's businesses and demonize the internet at every opportunity. So the general population see shed loads of scare stories which they believe because the have (or had) more trust in the mass media than the internet. How often have we heard the sarcastic phrase: "It must be true, its on the internet"? (Of course my reply is always an equally sarcastic: "It must be true, I read it in a newspaper".)

coldcode 13y ago

What bothers me most about this case is the total absence of responsibility of his superiors. Private in the military do nothing by themselves, should have no access to anything or make any decisions without someone telling them what to do. Basically if a private screws up, the chain of command screwed up. Of course in reality the big guys get away with it, but still someone was in charge of this private and gave him access to top secret information and failed to pay attention to what he was doing. That is the definition of dereliction of your duty as a leader. Yet I've heard nothing about anyone else's punishment (which could be the press simply sucks).

mpyne 13y ago
That's true. But the problem is that this particular failing goes essentially all the way to the top. There was a massive pressure to get people with Manning's skills into the military jobs that required clearances. This was such that even the process of getting a clearance got oursourced to contractors (witness the furor around the company that handled Snowden's screening). Even if Manning's immediate supervisor had tried to get him stripped of his clearance for any of the many "red flags", his supervisor would simply have got in trouble instead for doing something to get rid of a warm body in a seat that needed filled.

bayesianhorse 13y ago

The alleged treatment Bradley Manning had before the trial stretches the credibility of US law, period...

steveplace 13y ago

If you are tryiing to persuade people to join a particular issue, it doesn't help when you alienate parts of your readerbase. The first paragraph: > I'm not just thinking of the country's dysfunctional Congress, pathological infatuation with firearms, addiction to litigation, crazy healthcare arrangements, engorged prison system, chronic inequality, 50-year-old military-industrial complex and out-of-control security services. Right there you've already excluded persons who are pro-gun and want to support your cause. This kind of issue transcends a lot of traditional barriers, so it would help if they weren't reconstructed around the argument.

MRSallee 13y ago
Yeah, the "pathological infatuation with firearms" bit struck me as out of place among the other issues. I don't own guns, but I'm not afraid of people that do.
- selectodude 13y ago
  I've found that most people who shoot their peers with guns, don't actually own the gun.
  - smokeyj 13y ago
    It's typically government issued.
    - 001sky 13y ago
      The nature of war has little to do with guns.
AsymetricCom 13y ago
> And potentially 136 years for downloading stuff Wow, this makes me want to punch the writer more than any other line, and I pirate regularly. It's obvious that the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act needs reform, maybe that's why the press is having their lamest hacks write about it?