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Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it: First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. You should feel terrible for this. "

Fuck it, I'll go ahead and say it: First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. You should feel terrible for this. "They" are not merely your possible friends, or your relative's relatives, or your neighbors' cousins... "They" are other human beings who might someday decide to stand up for their human rights. "They" are millions of people you sold out for easy "dinner" & "rent". And now the tool you helped build to invade their privacy is likely being turned on all your real friends, and your real relatives, and your real neighbors. And you're not even getting paid anymore. You should feel terrible for selling out for so little. You weren't as afraid of being unemployed as you were of having to do something. You were mentally lazy and your moral compass was clearly defunct. Too bad your behavior is not undoable and you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life. Maybe you can do something to recover for it in the future. Hopefully your ethical failure can serve as an example of what not to do.

icebraining 13y ago
What did you hope to accomplish with this post? "Here's someone who did something bad, who can't undo it, and who feels bad enough to come clean - let's rub it in so as to discourage others from doing so"?
- Skalman 13y ago
  I'd say that a clear goal of that post is to emphasize that it was a choice. To me Spothawk is rubbing in the fact that it was a decision.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    And it's a lot of people's 'decision' to bury their heads in the sand about the implications of Snowden's leaks. In that light, why isn't it also directed at everyone who doesn't care, rather than one guy who does? Edit: What about the employer's choices to go ahead with it? No anger directed that way? This guy should have fallen on his sword but his company gets a pass?
    - mr_spothawk 13y ago
      Yeah, every person in the chain needs to wake the f* up. Please don't mistake my lack of attention to Blizzard's complicity as a 'pass'. I actively campaign against folks who would bury their heads in the sand. In the past decade I have spent huge effort (preaching?) to convince my peers not to accept work in these Military Industrial jobs and to leave them if they're already there. I've had quite a bit of success in that regard, and I would encourage (as I tried in my response) that others would help educate their peers as well.
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- mr_spothawk 13y ago
  I was very very clear about what I hoped to accomplish: a repentance from the actor in this case, and to highlight their stupidity to others. And I wish more people would stand up and say it to their friends and relatives when those people graduate college and start talking about working for the Military Industrial Complex, "Cyber" anything, or various other companies who build bombs, agents of war, or devices used to subjugate other humans. I hope this person will work hard to redeem what he's wrought. Nothing else can redeem him, his work won't just disappear for his remorse. >Too bad your behavior is not undoable and you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life. Maybe you can do something to recover for it in the future. Hopefully your ethical failure can serve as an example of what not to do. I hope that others will send the message loudly and clearly to those that would create bomb parts or fragments of code necessary for snooping tools or facilitate those who would like to usurp peaceful human behavior.
  - amirmc 13y ago
    No, you were not at all clear about what you wanted to achieve. From my reading, you simply berated someone on the internet for revealing something about themselves. I've never found that to be a productive way of convincing anyone of anything. You now say that the aim was to get repentance, when he's already stated he regrets it. At no point do you give advice about what he could/should do now to 'make up for his sins', apart from 'feel really bad'.
    - OrlandoSuave 13y ago
      "At no point do you give advice about what he could/should do now to 'make up for his sins'" What do you want him to do to make up for it? Travel to China and tell the government to stop spying on their people using software he helped program?
      - amirmc 13y ago
        Please re-read the thread as you've completely missed my point. I've not asked the person who 'confessed' to 'atone' for anything (that doesn't mean I agree with what happened). My problem is with the comment that does nothing more than lambast someone without providing anything constructive. Offering some comment on how to approach such a situation next time, or what he could now, or projects he might think about contributing to, or anything else that might be useful to the person who originally posted or others reading the thread. As it stands, it's not much better than an ad-hominem.
elbear 13y ago
I consider your comment very unproductive. You basically berated someone who already came out and said they were sorry for what they did. He realizes his mistake and repents. The fact that you want to make him feel even more guilty doesn't help at all and I find it very sad.
- mr_spothawk 13y ago
  You stole something from me (freedom, in this case). Coming to me and admitting it does not absolve you from guilt. You should feel guilty for a long time. I am not wrong to castigate this type of behavior. I personally feel this sort of behavior should result in jail time, but can acknowledge that's not going to happen. I also want everybody who reads this thread to understand how completely awful this sort of behavior is. That you are here talking about defending Throwaway123's honor instead of being filled with rage at his behavior is an indication that our society has a long way to go before we deserve privacy again.
jwatte 13y ago
Selling out for "so little"? I bet he sold out for over hundred thousand dollars, or more (depending on how long he wirked tgere.) The need to know where food and rent are coming from is strong in humans, and the system takes full advantage of it. If you want to go against that, it will take a lot more than some ultimately futile work stoppage and sacrificing your future career. The system is what it is, the golden rule applies, and to change the system, it would take prolonged civil war. I'd that what you want? () he who has the gold, makes the rule.
- mr_spothawk 13y ago
  >The system is what it is, the golden rule applies, and to change the system, it would take prolonged civil war. I'd that what you want? I want people to wake up and realize that this is absolutely farcical. We still live in a democracy, and we still have the power to stop this behavior by 'the system'. It took generations of stupidity to get here and it will take generations to get us out, but, cynical as I am, I don't think all is lost. It takes waking up and walking out of jobs that do this sort of work. It takes jury nullification [1]. It takes thoughtful decisions by graduating seniors looking for work. It takes political education and civil protest and HARD WORK, but it doesn't require violence between the states. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
  - codyb 13y ago
    When former President Jimmy Carter is on the record stating America simply has no functioning democracy at this point, it might be more of an uphill battle than voting. And anyways, there's not much to vote for. I vote green because Republicans are terrible, Democrats at least seem to pretend they care but won't stop any of this, Libertarianism scares me. So even though I don't agree with everything the Green party says, at least it's different. But we don't have socialist factions really, or pirate party candidates yet. President Carter's quote: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/17698-president-carter-says-america-has-no-functioning-democracy http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/17698-president-carter...
ansdkfus13 13y ago
Don't we all make terrible choices both explicitly as well as implicitly? When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. At least this guy has courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing.
- doki_pen 13y ago
  I'm calling bullshit. Maybe this gentlemen would have taken some job that paid less(i doubt it), but it's hard to believe that a programmer, of all people, would be blackballed industry wide for refusing to implement some spying mechanism. Give me a break. If anyone is in a position to rebel against this type of system it's those of us in software. We have a strong community of anti-establishment minded people, we have a very strong job market and we make much more than a living wage.
- mr_spothawk 13y ago
  >courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing. ... years later, with a throwaway account. >First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. See my first line? >When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. "But I was a coward and I didn't want to lose my job, didn't want to fight a legal battle, and, like I said, it was just China spying on it's people, which everyone knew they do anyway." Look, you can be as upset as you want with me for my attitude with this person, but don't make up stories about how hard his life is to justify this type of spineless behavior by others. We should all work harder to avoid making the decisions that result in harm to others. I encourage those around me to learn from the mistakes of others and not make choices that cause harm. (edits for clarity in quotations)

icebraining 13y ago

What did you hope to accomplish with this post? "Here's someone who did something bad, who can't undo it, and who feels bad enough to come clean - let's rub it in so as to discourage others from doing so"?

Skalman 13y ago
I'd say that a clear goal of that post is to emphasize that it was a choice. To me Spothawk is rubbing in the fact that it was a decision.
- amirmc 13y ago
  And it's a lot of people's 'decision' to bury their heads in the sand about the implications of Snowden's leaks. In that light, why isn't it also directed at everyone who doesn't care, rather than one guy who does? Edit: What about the employer's choices to go ahead with it? No anger directed that way? This guy should have fallen on his sword but his company gets a pass?
  - mr_spothawk 13y ago
    Yeah, every person in the chain needs to wake the f* up. Please don't mistake my lack of attention to Blizzard's complicity as a 'pass'. I actively campaign against folks who would bury their heads in the sand. In the past decade I have spent huge effort (preaching?) to convince my peers not to accept work in these Military Industrial jobs and to leave them if they're already there. I've had quite a bit of success in that regard, and I would encourage (as I tried in my response) that others would help educate their peers as well.
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mr_spothawk 13y ago
I was very very clear about what I hoped to accomplish: a repentance from the actor in this case, and to highlight their stupidity to others. And I wish more people would stand up and say it to their friends and relatives when those people graduate college and start talking about working for the Military Industrial Complex, "Cyber" anything, or various other companies who build bombs, agents of war, or devices used to subjugate other humans. I hope this person will work hard to redeem what he's wrought. Nothing else can redeem him, his work won't just disappear for his remorse. >Too bad your behavior is not undoable and you'll have to live with it for the rest of your life. Maybe you can do something to recover for it in the future. Hopefully your ethical failure can serve as an example of what not to do. I hope that others will send the message loudly and clearly to those that would create bomb parts or fragments of code necessary for snooping tools or facilitate those who would like to usurp peaceful human behavior.
- amirmc 13y ago
  No, you were not at all clear about what you wanted to achieve. From my reading, you simply berated someone on the internet for revealing something about themselves. I've never found that to be a productive way of convincing anyone of anything. You now say that the aim was to get repentance, when he's already stated he regrets it. At no point do you give advice about what he could/should do now to 'make up for his sins', apart from 'feel really bad'.
  - OrlandoSuave 13y ago
    "At no point do you give advice about what he could/should do now to 'make up for his sins'" What do you want him to do to make up for it? Travel to China and tell the government to stop spying on their people using software he helped program?
    - amirmc 13y ago
      Please re-read the thread as you've completely missed my point. I've not asked the person who 'confessed' to 'atone' for anything (that doesn't mean I agree with what happened). My problem is with the comment that does nothing more than lambast someone without providing anything constructive. Offering some comment on how to approach such a situation next time, or what he could now, or projects he might think about contributing to, or anything else that might be useful to the person who originally posted or others reading the thread. As it stands, it's not much better than an ad-hominem.

elbear 13y ago

I consider your comment very unproductive. You basically berated someone who already came out and said they were sorry for what they did. He realizes his mistake and repents. The fact that you want to make him feel even more guilty doesn't help at all and I find it very sad.

mr_spothawk 13y ago
You stole something from me (freedom, in this case). Coming to me and admitting it does not absolve you from guilt. You should feel guilty for a long time. I am not wrong to castigate this type of behavior. I personally feel this sort of behavior should result in jail time, but can acknowledge that's not going to happen. I also want everybody who reads this thread to understand how completely awful this sort of behavior is. That you are here talking about defending Throwaway123's honor instead of being filled with rage at his behavior is an indication that our society has a long way to go before we deserve privacy again.

jwatte 13y ago

Selling out for "so little"? I bet he sold out for over hundred thousand dollars, or more (depending on how long he wirked tgere.) The need to know where food and rent are coming from is strong in humans, and the system takes full advantage of it. If you want to go against that, it will take a lot more than some ultimately futile work stoppage and sacrificing your future career. The system is what it is, the golden rule applies, and to change the system, it would take prolonged civil war. I'd that what you want? () he who has the gold, makes the rule.

mr_spothawk 13y ago
>The system is what it is, the golden rule applies, and to change the system, it would take prolonged civil war. I'd that what you want? I want people to wake up and realize that this is absolutely farcical. We still live in a democracy, and we still have the power to stop this behavior by 'the system'. It took generations of stupidity to get here and it will take generations to get us out, but, cynical as I am, I don't think all is lost. It takes waking up and walking out of jobs that do this sort of work. It takes jury nullification [1]. It takes thoughtful decisions by graduating seniors looking for work. It takes political education and civil protest and HARD WORK, but it doesn't require violence between the states. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
- codyb 13y ago
  When former President Jimmy Carter is on the record stating America simply has no functioning democracy at this point, it might be more of an uphill battle than voting. And anyways, there's not much to vote for. I vote green because Republicans are terrible, Democrats at least seem to pretend they care but won't stop any of this, Libertarianism scares me. So even though I don't agree with everything the Green party says, at least it's different. But we don't have socialist factions really, or pirate party candidates yet. President Carter's quote: http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/17698-president-carter-says-america-has-no-functioning-democracy http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/17698-president-carter...

ansdkfus13 13y ago

Don't we all make terrible choices both explicitly as well as implicitly? When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. At least this guy has courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing.

doki_pen 13y ago
I'm calling bullshit. Maybe this gentlemen would have taken some job that paid less(i doubt it), but it's hard to believe that a programmer, of all people, would be blackballed industry wide for refusing to implement some spying mechanism. Give me a break. If anyone is in a position to rebel against this type of system it's those of us in software. We have a strong community of anti-establishment minded people, we have a very strong job market and we make much more than a living wage.
mr_spothawk 13y ago
>courage to come clean and admit his wrongdoing. ... years later, with a throwaway account. >First, thanks for coming clean. You're a human being who's made a really bad decision. See my first line? >When faced with a choice between the moral rectitude and the livelihood of your family, it's very difficult to choose the former. "But I was a coward and I didn't want to lose my job, didn't want to fight a legal battle, and, like I said, it was just China spying on it's people, which everyone knew they do anyway." Look, you can be as upset as you want with me for my attitude with this person, but don't make up stories about how hard his life is to justify this type of spineless behavior by others. We should all work harder to avoid making the decisions that result in harm to others. I encourage those around me to learn from the mistakes of others and not make choices that cause harm. (edits for clarity in quotations)