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Reading what you just wrote reminded me of the famous Edmund Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". If it had

by clicks 13y ago

Reading what you just wrote reminded me of the famous Edmund Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". If it had not been for the acquiescence of engineers who took part in the creation of PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. we... well, we would not have PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. Increasingly there is no such thing as an "amoral" position when it comes to a lot of these things -- you're either an entity who willingly chooses profit over principles, or you do something to defeat the evil as you see it (or, at least refuse to take part in it). In this day and age the conscientiousness of man is one of the last remaining defenses to fight the many evils, new or old, mercurial or familiar. It falls on all of us to think of the moral ramifications of our actions, in the workplace and off, and choose carefully and to the extent we comfortably can to see humanity continue prosperously. I don't mean this to be a thoughtless, idealistic anti-NSA tirade, I'm frankly very okay with folks working on hip new technology that catches the bad guys, I just think your decision framework which is devoid of any ethical considerations is highly, highly dangerous and I wish for the good of us all that it doesn't catch on.

black4eternity 13y ago
Probably they were told it was for the greater good, misled into creating a surveillance tool.
mdt 13y ago
>If it had not been for the acquiescence of engineers who took part in the creation of PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. we... well, we would not have PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. Oh, come on, man. If you think this is true in the fullest sense, you are not a thinking individual. Mere technological feasibility is 99% of the battle; implementation is the last, most inevitable step. >the famous Edmund Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". Googler. The quote may be famous, but Burke is not. Like most men with noble fighting words, he had more noble words in him than he did noble fighting.
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  Mere technological feasibility is 99% of the battle; implementation is the last, most inevitable step. Inevitable? As in, happens all by itself? How is that thinking?
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    The argument is presumably that if you won't do it, they'll find someone else who will. That's a pretty shit argument for being the one who folds. If everyone does refuse then it doesn't get built. If you refuse and they find someone else, that person may not be as good as you and may create a less effective surveillance apparatus which is easier for white hats to neutralize or dismantle. Engineering has practical consequences. If you build something that gets democracy activists killed, you're the one who has to live with that. There are plenty of cool problems to solve that don't involve the construction of a surveillance state.
- icelancer 13y ago
  Huh? Burke is pretty famous even without that quote. He was one of the most influential politicians during the Revolutionary War era.
  - mdt 13y ago
    Obviously not; if only a third of American supported their own revolution, how fringe do you think he was in Britain? I'm going with 'extremely'.
badman_ting 13y ago
I just don't see what this has to do with what tptacek posted. Seems to me he is indeed advocating refusing to take part.
__--__ 13y ago
I think your philosophy is the more dangerous one. "Evil" and "Good" are highly subjective and not nearly as straightforward as you're imagining. You see yourself as battling evil. So do the creators of PRISM. Nobody does anything because they think it's bad for the country, or humanity. We are all the heroes of our own story. The greater good has been used all through history to justify horrific acts, and those people genuinely thought they were doing the right thing. or you do something to defeat the evil as you see it (or, at least refuse to take part in it) Refusing to take part doesn't absolve you of anything, according to your philosophy. That's exactly what Thomas says he does - refuses to take part. And by refusing to take part, you're still doing nothing to thwart what you see as evil.
- clicks 13y ago
  You bring up good points, and I agree that a lot of these issues are very difficult to grapple with: it's difficult to pin down how evil something is, how much you're contributing to it, and whether you should take part in it when you've got mouths to feed at home. But I also think that an informed and learned individual in this day and age will recognize that dragnet surveillance encroaches on fundamental rights of human privacy. If I were an employee at NSA and had been asked to implement some part of PRISM I would protest within the proper confines of law, and ask to be given other work which I would be ethically okay with. > Refusing to take part doesn't absolve you of anything, according to your philosophy I think in this context it's fair to interpret a refusal to work on something you deem evil not as inaction but as an act that makes it difficult for evil to prevail. If most good men did this they either would not find persons to complete the work or only be able to find persons who cannot do it well or do it completely. To further clarify, what I am really saying is one's decisions at work which are detached from any ethical considerations is a problem, they're not just engineering problems -- they affect people, in good ways or bad. I hope everyone would make an earnest effort to determine the morality of tools, laws, policies, etc. they're in charge of creating or maintaining by accessing existing literature, discussing the moral considerations of their work with their peers and others, and then decide if they really want to be a part of that. And, as it happens, the chances are that since a lot of this stuff work requires high competency, whenever you find yourself in a situation where determining the morality of your work is exceedingly difficult, there is good chance you can easily find good work elsewhere that will give you the right engineering challenges without the difficult ethical questions.
qxf2 13y ago
I am understanding it differently, may be because after much deliberation I fell into the same position. I interpret the parent comment to mean that the questions posed are very, very relevant and worth grappling with, but knowing the answers is not a pre-requisite to work in the chosen field. I don't know about the original commenter, but I fell into this position as being the best for me based on, "I am overwhelmed by the number of things that I need to know to make a judgement of good/bad over here, but don't or cannot know. There is too much random chance in my life to figure out how my actions play out. Until I grow wiser, let me do what that chance has laid my way, knowing fully well that I am operating in the dark." The big, muddying parameters for me to answer 'is what I am doing right?' were: 1. In what context? 2. Over what timeframe? The larger the context, the longer the timeframe, the more the number of competing principles I had to prioritize, often in inconsistent ways over different aspects of life. In the end, I defaulted to the original commenter's position, with the blind optimism that I would somehow, somewhere in the future get more clarity and wisdom through experience.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Exactly this. Alex Stamos' ethical strategy is perilous; it forces him to do a balancing act when asked to help companies like Narus or the USG, because his work for those organizations could help more than it hurt. I'm confident Alex can perform those ethical acrobatics, but I prefer to avoid them altogether.
tptacek 13y ago
Did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? None of this has anything to do with my comment.
- jfarmer 13y ago
  You know how it works, Thomas! People translate comments into the version that best suits their lives. :P
- clicks 13y ago
  One, I don't think it's the HN law that all threads should follow in some precise linearity: there's such a thing as free-form debate. Two, my comment did have something to do with your comment. Three, you very often reply like this -- "did you read what I said?" -- not that it matters much to me personally, but can you please start making an effort of at least trying to communicate such things in a little more civilized manner? The tone of such comments is often toxic and inflammatory.
  - oinksoft 13y ago
    His authoritarian tone squares nicely with his approach to ethics as expressed in threads like these.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      I think you think this is a stinging comment, but it really says more about you than it does about me.
      - oinksoft 13y ago
        My comment being sincere, I don't expect it to sting you in the least. What a petulant reply.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    The idea you took away from my comment was the opposite of the idea that it communicated. You decided that my comment was an endorsement of amorality. It wasn't. Now that you've been called out on that, you wriggle and writhe through all sorts of meta-commentary to avoid acknowledging your misperception.

by clicks 13y ago

black4eternity 13y ago

Probably they were told it was for the greater good, misled into creating a surveillance tool.

mdt 13y ago

>If it had not been for the acquiescence of engineers who took part in the creation of PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. we... well, we would not have PRISM, XKeyscore, etc. Oh, come on, man. If you think this is true in the fullest sense, you are not a thinking individual. Mere technological feasibility is 99% of the battle; implementation is the last, most inevitable step. >the famous Edmund Burke quote: "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". Googler. The quote may be famous, but Burke is not. Like most men with noble fighting words, he had more noble words in him than he did noble fighting.

PavlovsCat 13y ago
Mere technological feasibility is 99% of the battle; implementation is the last, most inevitable step. Inevitable? As in, happens all by itself? How is that thinking?
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  The argument is presumably that if you won't do it, they'll find someone else who will. That's a pretty shit argument for being the one who folds. If everyone does refuse then it doesn't get built. If you refuse and they find someone else, that person may not be as good as you and may create a less effective surveillance apparatus which is easier for white hats to neutralize or dismantle. Engineering has practical consequences. If you build something that gets democracy activists killed, you're the one who has to live with that. There are plenty of cool problems to solve that don't involve the construction of a surveillance state.
icelancer 13y ago
Huh? Burke is pretty famous even without that quote. He was one of the most influential politicians during the Revolutionary War era.
- mdt 13y ago
  Obviously not; if only a third of American supported their own revolution, how fringe do you think he was in Britain? I'm going with 'extremely'.

badman_ting 13y ago

I just don't see what this has to do with what tptacek posted. Seems to me he is indeed advocating refusing to take part.

__--__ 13y ago

I think your philosophy is the more dangerous one. "Evil" and "Good" are highly subjective and not nearly as straightforward as you're imagining. You see yourself as battling evil. So do the creators of PRISM. Nobody does anything because they think it's bad for the country, or humanity. We are all the heroes of our own story. The greater good has been used all through history to justify horrific acts, and those people genuinely thought they were doing the right thing. or you do something to defeat the evil as you see it (or, at least refuse to take part in it) Refusing to take part doesn't absolve you of anything, according to your philosophy. That's exactly what Thomas says he does - refuses to take part. And by refusing to take part, you're still doing nothing to thwart what you see as evil.

clicks 13y ago
You bring up good points, and I agree that a lot of these issues are very difficult to grapple with: it's difficult to pin down how evil something is, how much you're contributing to it, and whether you should take part in it when you've got mouths to feed at home. But I also think that an informed and learned individual in this day and age will recognize that dragnet surveillance encroaches on fundamental rights of human privacy. If I were an employee at NSA and had been asked to implement some part of PRISM I would protest within the proper confines of law, and ask to be given other work which I would be ethically okay with. > Refusing to take part doesn't absolve you of anything, according to your philosophy I think in this context it's fair to interpret a refusal to work on something you deem evil not as inaction but as an act that makes it difficult for evil to prevail. If most good men did this they either would not find persons to complete the work or only be able to find persons who cannot do it well or do it completely. To further clarify, what I am really saying is one's decisions at work which are detached from any ethical considerations is a problem, they're not just engineering problems -- they affect people, in good ways or bad. I hope everyone would make an earnest effort to determine the morality of tools, laws, policies, etc. they're in charge of creating or maintaining by accessing existing literature, discussing the moral considerations of their work with their peers and others, and then decide if they really want to be a part of that. And, as it happens, the chances are that since a lot of this stuff work requires high competency, whenever you find yourself in a situation where determining the morality of your work is exceedingly difficult, there is good chance you can easily find good work elsewhere that will give you the right engineering challenges without the difficult ethical questions.

qxf2 13y ago

I am understanding it differently, may be because after much deliberation I fell into the same position. I interpret the parent comment to mean that the questions posed are very, very relevant and worth grappling with, but knowing the answers is not a pre-requisite to work in the chosen field. I don't know about the original commenter, but I fell into this position as being the best for me based on, "I am overwhelmed by the number of things that I need to know to make a judgement of good/bad over here, but don't or cannot know. There is too much random chance in my life to figure out how my actions play out. Until I grow wiser, let me do what that chance has laid my way, knowing fully well that I am operating in the dark." The big, muddying parameters for me to answer 'is what I am doing right?' were: 1. In what context? 2. Over what timeframe? The larger the context, the longer the timeframe, the more the number of competing principles I had to prioritize, often in inconsistent ways over different aspects of life. In the end, I defaulted to the original commenter's position, with the blind optimism that I would somehow, somewhere in the future get more clarity and wisdom through experience.

tptacek 13y ago
Exactly this. Alex Stamos' ethical strategy is perilous; it forces him to do a balancing act when asked to help companies like Narus or the USG, because his work for those organizations could help more than it hurt. I'm confident Alex can perform those ethical acrobatics, but I prefer to avoid them altogether.

tptacek 13y ago

Did you read every other sentence of what I wrote? None of this has anything to do with my comment.

jfarmer 13y ago
You know how it works, Thomas! People translate comments into the version that best suits their lives. :P
clicks 13y ago
One, I don't think it's the HN law that all threads should follow in some precise linearity: there's such a thing as free-form debate. Two, my comment did have something to do with your comment. Three, you very often reply like this -- "did you read what I said?" -- not that it matters much to me personally, but can you please start making an effort of at least trying to communicate such things in a little more civilized manner? The tone of such comments is often toxic and inflammatory.
- oinksoft 13y ago
  His authoritarian tone squares nicely with his approach to ethics as expressed in threads like these.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    I think you think this is a stinging comment, but it really says more about you than it does about me.
    - oinksoft 13y ago
      My comment being sincere, I don't expect it to sting you in the least. What a petulant reply.
- tptacek 13y ago
  The idea you took away from my comment was the opposite of the idea that it communicated. You decided that my comment was an endorsement of amorality. It wasn't. Now that you've been called out on that, you wriggle and writhe through all sorts of meta-commentary to avoid acknowledging your misperception.