4 ms·

Regarding your addendum, if you really view the people as incompetent idiots, I'd argue you're not all that interested in winning them as friends. In any case,

by tspike 13y ago

Regarding your addendum, if you really view the people as incompetent idiots, I'd argue you're not all that interested in winning them as friends. In any case, just give the person the information they need without attacking them -- they won't feel defensive and they'll probably feel pretty stupid on their own. For bonus points, try to empathize and think about something stupid you once did -- surely you've done some idiotic things in the past.

gonzo 13y ago
> surely you've done some idiotic thigs in the past. No, but give me 5 minutes, and I'm sure I will.
andrewcooke 13y ago
i don't deny doing stupid things. look, here's an example from my recent posting history - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6121287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6121287 and the follow-up http://www.acooke.org/cute/HyperloopW0.html#Mon29Jul20132135420400 http://www.acooke.org/cute/HyperloopW0.html#Mon29Jul20132135... what depresses me is that people don't admit it, learn, and move on. instead we get "well, i am showing how important it is to make this information more explicit because everyone else is as dumb as i am". no. we are not. ps and no, i am not interested in winning you as a friend. what makes you think i would be? i am interested in influencing people. i want people to be smarter. it's frustrating that this can't be done by simply pointing out the correct answer. instead, people need to be molly-coddled into changing their minds without noticing. by pretending to be friends. an enormous amount of effort is needed to effect the smallest change. i don't deny it. i think i need to read and learn from that depressing little book. but god i wish people would think a little more.
- gregd 13y ago
  When you view the world as being filled with incompetent idiots, you're seeing the world through your own filter...not anybody elses. Realize that everybody on the face of the planet has their own filter. Human relationships are built upon being able to empathize with others and perhaps glimpse life through their filter. Not seeing the fork ribbon in the upper-right isn't about someone being "dumb" anymore than you not knowing how to change your own oil, fix a leaky faucet, put in a new electrical outlet or build a fucking house, makes you dumb. You didn't just "simply point" out the correct answer. You added, "you really can't have looked very hard." which is an assumption on your part; a conclusion you reached based on your filter of the "world seems to be populated by incompetent idiots".
  - oblique63 13y ago
    Very much this. As someone with a strong interest in everything neurology/psychology/intelligence/learning/teaching/etc, this is the most accurate description of what is going on. "Incompetence" isn't toxic, viewpoint and attitude are. There will always be someone "dumber" than you, and there will always be someone "smarter" than you. Once you realize this and internalize it into your world view, you will come to the same conclusion that book teaches, and that is one of cooperation. Like my parent here alluded to, you didn't just point out an answer, you projected your thought process onto another person. Why do some people get depressed at what seem like tiny insignificant details, while others live happily in the worst of global conditions? The answer is Perspective. The pain/difficulty anyone feels is very much real to them, it is not an objective measurement -- so when you project the idea that a person just couldn't have tried very hard, you make the assumption that you know what it's like for that person to 'try' anything in that context. If you look at my own comment history, you'll see that I have dealt with the difficulty of explaining myself to others quite a bit, but also that I try to turn it into a productive thought-provoking discussion with a neutral tone and strong points. For example, what I am saying right now is very similar to a direct attack on your ego (and I wouldn't blame you if you took it as such), but I try to present my words in such a way that will invoke action from your rational 'executive brain' long before it hits your emotional 'reptilian brain', if that makes any sense? The only real course of action that makes sense is cooperation; any other interpretation would basically implicate that either the world revolves around you, or that everyone is like you, and those ideas should be clearly false to everyone.
- yakira 13y ago
  The Github thing is a very minor issue, but it seems to have instigated a more general discussion. I think you will gain a lot from reading Carnegie. I empathize with your struggle; I used to think the same way as you, but now I have come to appreciate that influence is a dance of psychology, anthropology, economics, politics, and specific field knowledge. Correcting even the most blatantly wrong things in anything requires that you get right all the social forces around it. This has always been the case, but for whatever reason, some of us get the wrong mental model growing up - that pointing out the answer could affect change. The more you care that the other side gives up their own facts to accept yours, the less effective your stance will be, no matter how nondisputable the facts. It is much better to act amnesiac and give people wiggle room so they don't feel bad about adopting a new point of view and fear being inconsistent with their past point of view. Correcting someone always implies they were wrong, not something to be reminded of.
replax 13y ago
Sorry for the off-topic what i understood from reading the book making friends and influencing people, i thought that the "friends" he refers to are Customers/Business contacts. which is often a lot off from our definition of friends (or at least mine...)
- tspike 13y ago
  Yup, the book clearly has a business slant, but the thesis is that you gain business influence by being a decent human being, cultivating your sense of empathy, and developing genuine relationships with people. The distinction is pretty blurry.

by tspike 13y ago

gonzo 13y ago

> surely you've done some idiotic thigs in the past. No, but give me 5 minutes, and I'm sure I will.

andrewcooke 13y ago

i don't deny doing stupid things. look, here's an example from my recent posting history - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6121287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6121287 and the follow-up http://www.acooke.org/cute/HyperloopW0.html#Mon29Jul20132135420400 http://www.acooke.org/cute/HyperloopW0.html#Mon29Jul20132135... what depresses me is that people don't admit it, learn, and move on. instead we get "well, i am showing how important it is to make this information more explicit because everyone else is as dumb as i am". no. we are not. ps and no, i am not interested in winning you as a friend. what makes you think i would be? i am interested in influencing people. i want people to be smarter. it's frustrating that this can't be done by simply pointing out the correct answer. instead, people need to be molly-coddled into changing their minds without noticing. by pretending to be friends. an enormous amount of effort is needed to effect the smallest change. i don't deny it. i think i need to read and learn from that depressing little book. but god i wish people would think a little more.

gregd 13y ago
When you view the world as being filled with incompetent idiots, you're seeing the world through your own filter...not anybody elses. Realize that everybody on the face of the planet has their own filter. Human relationships are built upon being able to empathize with others and perhaps glimpse life through their filter. Not seeing the fork ribbon in the upper-right isn't about someone being "dumb" anymore than you not knowing how to change your own oil, fix a leaky faucet, put in a new electrical outlet or build a fucking house, makes you dumb. You didn't just "simply point" out the correct answer. You added, "you really can't have looked very hard." which is an assumption on your part; a conclusion you reached based on your filter of the "world seems to be populated by incompetent idiots".
- oblique63 13y ago
  Very much this. As someone with a strong interest in everything neurology/psychology/intelligence/learning/teaching/etc, this is the most accurate description of what is going on. "Incompetence" isn't toxic, viewpoint and attitude are. There will always be someone "dumber" than you, and there will always be someone "smarter" than you. Once you realize this and internalize it into your world view, you will come to the same conclusion that book teaches, and that is one of cooperation. Like my parent here alluded to, you didn't just point out an answer, you projected your thought process onto another person. Why do some people get depressed at what seem like tiny insignificant details, while others live happily in the worst of global conditions? The answer is Perspective. The pain/difficulty anyone feels is very much real to them, it is not an objective measurement -- so when you project the idea that a person just couldn't have tried very hard, you make the assumption that you know what it's like for that person to 'try' anything in that context. If you look at my own comment history, you'll see that I have dealt with the difficulty of explaining myself to others quite a bit, but also that I try to turn it into a productive thought-provoking discussion with a neutral tone and strong points. For example, what I am saying right now is very similar to a direct attack on your ego (and I wouldn't blame you if you took it as such), but I try to present my words in such a way that will invoke action from your rational 'executive brain' long before it hits your emotional 'reptilian brain', if that makes any sense? The only real course of action that makes sense is cooperation; any other interpretation would basically implicate that either the world revolves around you, or that everyone is like you, and those ideas should be clearly false to everyone.
yakira 13y ago
The Github thing is a very minor issue, but it seems to have instigated a more general discussion. I think you will gain a lot from reading Carnegie. I empathize with your struggle; I used to think the same way as you, but now I have come to appreciate that influence is a dance of psychology, anthropology, economics, politics, and specific field knowledge. Correcting even the most blatantly wrong things in anything requires that you get right all the social forces around it. This has always been the case, but for whatever reason, some of us get the wrong mental model growing up - that pointing out the answer could affect change. The more you care that the other side gives up their own facts to accept yours, the less effective your stance will be, no matter how nondisputable the facts. It is much better to act amnesiac and give people wiggle room so they don't feel bad about adopting a new point of view and fear being inconsistent with their past point of view. Correcting someone always implies they were wrong, not something to be reminded of.

replax 13y ago

Sorry for the off-topic what i understood from reading the book making friends and influencing people, i thought that the "friends" he refers to are Customers/Business contacts. which is often a lot off from our definition of friends (or at least mine...)

tspike 13y ago
Yup, the book clearly has a business slant, but the thesis is that you gain business influence by being a decent human being, cultivating your sense of empathy, and developing genuine relationships with people. The distinction is pretty blurry.