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The problem with the NSA outrage is that it's about what the NSA could do with the data, not what they have done. The abuse of power is mostly theoretical at t

The problem with the NSA outrage is that it's about what the NSA could do with the data, not what they have done. The abuse of power is mostly theoretical at this point, and until we see confirmation that the NSA is using their knowledge of people for evil, it's all just speculation. The privacy violations are simply not enough for people to care, and I'm not 100% sure they're wrong.

Goladus 13y ago
This is all true, but it still doesn't mean the problem shouldn't be addressed. And yes, the outrage is going to die down somewhat, the question then becomes how much is the media going to sell out their principles? Most people have to go back to their lives. But for journalists, it's their job to report on this sort of thing. Are they going to continue hammering for answers? Are they going to continue to report on whether anything has been done about secret warrants and the FISA court? Or are they going to give up at the first sign of fickleness in their audience and cater to their whimsy? Are they going to skip writing an article about the issue and instead write a meta-article about how people are no longer outraged about the issue?
LoganCale 13y ago
If they are collecting and storing everyone's data, it will be abused. It's only a matter of time and gradually weaker requirements for accessing it. It needs to be stopped now before they can abuse it.
- diminoten 13y ago
  Frankly, you don't know that. We can wax Orwellian as much as we'd like, but until you actually have evidence of these supposed abuses happening, most people will recognize your slippery-slope for what it is, and stop paying attention to you. Pre-crime goes both ways; are you really prepared to string up an organization for a crime it could commit, because you've "seen the future"?
  - LoganCale 13y ago
    When it's a government agency violating my privacy against my will, and against the spirit of the law, then yes, absolutely I am prepared to put limits on their ability to do that due to the extreme risk of abuse. Limits on government power exist for a reason. Because governments inevitably expand and abuse their power.
    - diminoten 13y ago
      It's very very far from a foregone conclusion that they're a) violating the letter or spirit of any law and b) even violating your privacy in the first place. Besides, the whole point of a democracy is that you, specifically, aren't supposed to have very much power. What you're prepared to do isn't what most people are prepared to do, because this perceived threat is not an actual threat, not yet. And if you think governments inevitably expand and abuse their power, then you must believe that this fight is a useless and hopeless one, one you're doomed to lose. It's a nice line, but it doesn't fit with anything else you're trying to say.
      - LoganCale 13y ago
        They're collecting phone records of everyone. They say they haven't been collecting location data yet (I don't trust them, but we'll leave that aside for now) but a court just ruled that they are free to do so, so I expect they will start to if they haven't already. That violates my privacy even though it is technically legal. Furthermore, collecting business records of everyone without a warrant requiring probable cause absolutely violates the spirit of the law they claim authorizes it, as evidenced by the authors of that very law saying so. Your second paragraph is meaningless to the discussion, because what I, and others, are trying to do is raise awareness of the threats to convince others to act, which is something everyone is free to do on any subject. Governments do inevitably push at the edges of everything they're allowed to do, which is why we have to keep enforcing and adding limitations as necessary to keep them from pushing out in new areas. It's not hopeless, as long as there are still independent branches of government that don't all work together on everything. Congress needs to establish firm limits and close the loopholes and twisted interpretations of law the executive branch continues to find and exploit.

Goladus 13y ago

This is all true, but it still doesn't mean the problem shouldn't be addressed. And yes, the outrage is going to die down somewhat, the question then becomes how much is the media going to sell out their principles? Most people have to go back to their lives. But for journalists, it's their job to report on this sort of thing. Are they going to continue hammering for answers? Are they going to continue to report on whether anything has been done about secret warrants and the FISA court? Or are they going to give up at the first sign of fickleness in their audience and cater to their whimsy? Are they going to skip writing an article about the issue and instead write a meta-article about how people are no longer outraged about the issue?

LoganCale 13y ago

If they are collecting and storing everyone's data, it will be abused. It's only a matter of time and gradually weaker requirements for accessing it. It needs to be stopped now before they can abuse it.

diminoten 13y ago
Frankly, you don't know that. We can wax Orwellian as much as we'd like, but until you actually have evidence of these supposed abuses happening, most people will recognize your slippery-slope for what it is, and stop paying attention to you. Pre-crime goes both ways; are you really prepared to string up an organization for a crime it could commit, because you've "seen the future"?
- LoganCale 13y ago
  When it's a government agency violating my privacy against my will, and against the spirit of the law, then yes, absolutely I am prepared to put limits on their ability to do that due to the extreme risk of abuse. Limits on government power exist for a reason. Because governments inevitably expand and abuse their power.
  - diminoten 13y ago
    It's very very far from a foregone conclusion that they're a) violating the letter or spirit of any law and b) even violating your privacy in the first place. Besides, the whole point of a democracy is that you, specifically, aren't supposed to have very much power. What you're prepared to do isn't what most people are prepared to do, because this perceived threat is not an actual threat, not yet. And if you think governments inevitably expand and abuse their power, then you must believe that this fight is a useless and hopeless one, one you're doomed to lose. It's a nice line, but it doesn't fit with anything else you're trying to say.
    - LoganCale 13y ago
      They're collecting phone records of everyone. They say they haven't been collecting location data yet (I don't trust them, but we'll leave that aside for now) but a court just ruled that they are free to do so, so I expect they will start to if they haven't already. That violates my privacy even though it is technically legal. Furthermore, collecting business records of everyone without a warrant requiring probable cause absolutely violates the spirit of the law they claim authorizes it, as evidenced by the authors of that very law saying so. Your second paragraph is meaningless to the discussion, because what I, and others, are trying to do is raise awareness of the threats to convince others to act, which is something everyone is free to do on any subject. Governments do inevitably push at the edges of everything they're allowed to do, which is why we have to keep enforcing and adding limitations as necessary to keep them from pushing out in new areas. It's not hopeless, as long as there are still independent branches of government that don't all work together on everything. Congress needs to establish firm limits and close the loopholes and twisted interpretations of law the executive branch continues to find and exploit.