10 ms·

On the night of the arrest—without an arrest warrant—Serge waived his right to call a lawyer. He phoned his wife and told her what had happened and that a bunch

On the night of the arrest—without an arrest warrant—Serge waived his right to call a lawyer. He phoned his wife and told her what had happened and that a bunch of F.B.I. agents were on the way to their home to seize their computers, and to please let them in—though they had no search warrant, either. Then he sat down and politely tried to clear up the F.B.I. agent's confusion. "He was completely not interested in the content of what I am saying. He just kept saying to me, 'If you tell me everything, I'll talk to the judge, and he'll go easy on you.' It appeared they had a very strong bias from the very beginning. They had goals they wanted to fulfill. The goal was to obtain an immediate confession." Don't talk to police! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

sneak 13y ago
That video is right up there with knowing about 83b elections as some of the most valuable information one can possibly possess. I rewatch it annually and send out mass emails to all my friends and family when I do reminding them to do so as well.
- reginaldjcooper 13y ago
  Can you add "jury nullification" to the mass emails also? That's what I tell my friends and family about.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    If I ever get "fuck you" money, I am going to entertain myself by renting billboard space around courtrooms urging jurors to Google "jury nullification". I figure there would probably be some entertaining fallout of some sort.
    - rhizome 13y ago
      Depends on your definition of "entertainment," but you'll probably want to do your homework first, regardless: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/nyregion/26jury.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/nyregion/26jury.html?_r=0
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        I'm familiar with that man. That more or less is my definition of entertainment. I think somebody with money and who did it right (billboards on major roads surrounding but not necessarily in front of the court house, never approaching individuals in any way) could get into some interesting legal battles. Do it right and it is plainly free speech; if I were to write/publish a book instead of design/rent billboards it would be very unambiguously legal. The entertainment comes in the form of seeing how they would try to stop me.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/indictment-against-julian-heicklen-jury-nullification-advocate-is-dismissed.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/indictment-agains...
    - rollo_tommasi 13y ago
      Given how jury nullification was traditionally used, that fallout will probably also include accusations of virulent racism. I'm not sure a lot of more libertarian types who advocate for jury-nullification are fully aware that the reason it was suppressed was that it was for decades a mechanism to basically let white guys kills black guys consequence-free.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        This is one of the reasons "fuck you" money is necessary. Jury nullification is a tool, it is not itself racist, though those who have other reasons to oppose it of course paint it as such. With "fuck you" money, much of that sort of slander loses its teeth.
      - reginaldjcooper 13y ago
        I did not know that. I still stand by nullification as a possible solution to marijuana possession charges or the more egregious "excessive downloading" felonies. But it would be horrific to watch it used by twelve racists to free actual murderers :(
- gamblor956 13y ago
  Tell that to all the Zynga employees who made 83(b) elections and are now underwater! 83(b) entails being taxed on the value of stock/options when purchased/received (i.e., as compensation), rather than when vested or when exercised. It's great if the value of the stock increases, but you're substantially worse off economically (taking the time value of money into account) if the value of the stock decreases.
  - gohrt 13y ago
    What valuation did those underwater employees get?
- mahyarm 13y ago
  Unless the total price of the stock grant is financially negligible at the point of hire, the %5 tax difference isn't that great of an advantage compared to the risk since most startups fail. I think vested stock options not expiring a few months after leaving the company is far more valuable, but no one does that. It would allow you to put no money down and only exercise when the options are actually liquid without being forced to purchase the stock at some point due to circumstances not under your control.
tomp 13y ago
Are you sure about that? Do non-Americans have the same rights as Americans? Can they refuse to talk to the police, refuse to let the police into their home without a warrant, have an attorney present, ...?
- drone 13y ago
  Yes, all persons on US soil are to be protected by the constitution. (Not withstanding specific incidents of abuse, the fact that one is, or isn't a citizen is not intended to have any effect on the constitutional rights available.)
  - marvin 13y ago
    Is it really as simple as this in practice? Does anyone have any experience with this? As a foreigner, I have huge respect for the amount of trouble that the immigration authorities can cause for you if they figure they don't like your face.
    - jrochkind1 13y ago
      The law is that simple. Actual practice may not be -- but talking to the cops sure didn't help the guy in this story, did it? It made things worse. A lot worse. But yeah, if the government wants to fuck with you, they can surely fuck with you. Your best defense is getting a lawyer asap and not talking to the cops without a lawyer.
    - jonknee 13y ago
      He would have been quite lucky to be deported. It's also sadly a much different game when you have access to funds--most people don't call a lawyer because it's expensive.
    - dragontamer 13y ago
      Miranda Rights. Even foreigners are entitled to a public defender. Prosecutors aren't allowed to even talk to you without giving you your Miranda Rights first (except in very very limited situations) EDIT: It seems like Immigration is treated differently from other criminal cases. But it seems like if you're arrested by the typical FBI agent (ie: some sort of crime), you're gonna get Miranda Rights read to you, and the option for a free public lawyer.
rhizome 13y ago
Even more on point: ALWAYS record interactions with the FBI: http://jonathanturley.org/2013/05/11/why-the-fbi-doesnt-record-interrogations/ http://jonathanturley.org/2013/05/11/why-the-fbi-doesnt-reco... http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130516/18383623114/your-word-against-ours-how-fbis-no-electronic-recording-policy-rigs-game-destroys-its-credibility.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130516/18383623114/your-w... http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/05/10/beware-fbi-when-not-recording/yz55UX8WMKU080pN4aP68K/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/05/10/beware-fbi-whe... http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070402_FBI_Memo.pdf http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070402_FBI_Me...
- psychometry 13y ago
  Unless you live in a multiple-party wiretap consent state, in which case you've committed additional crimes.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    None of those articles promote surreptitious recording. You tell them you will only speak while being recorded (with a lawyer, natch), then they go away.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
ChuckMcM 13y ago
The best answer to the question "Can I ask you a few questions?" is "Sure! Just give me your card and I'll have my attorney set something up." Gives them nowhere to go but home.
- dustingetz 13y ago
  This is far too oversimplified to be the third comment I read in this thread, sorry.
RestlessMind 13y ago
I don't know anyone in my circles who "has" a lawyer. So what to do when you encounter a situation with law enforcement officials? If I am at home, sure, I can search for a nearby lawyer's contact information. But what if I am at airport or some place where I cannot search for one? How do I find a lawyer in that case?
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  "If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning, if you wish." it is when you're arrested. Until arrested - my understanding that one don't have to answer questions. Though personally i found it is really impossible to insist on your rights, i basically just chicken under stress : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142434
  - hso9791 13y ago
    "Am I free to go?"

sneak 13y ago

That video is right up there with knowing about 83b elections as some of the most valuable information one can possibly possess. I rewatch it annually and send out mass emails to all my friends and family when I do reminding them to do so as well.

reginaldjcooper 13y ago
Can you add "jury nullification" to the mass emails also? That's what I tell my friends and family about.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  If I ever get "fuck you" money, I am going to entertain myself by renting billboard space around courtrooms urging jurors to Google "jury nullification". I figure there would probably be some entertaining fallout of some sort.
  - rhizome 13y ago
    Depends on your definition of "entertainment," but you'll probably want to do your homework first, regardless: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/nyregion/26jury.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/26/nyregion/26jury.html?_r=0
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      I'm familiar with that man. That more or less is my definition of entertainment. I think somebody with money and who did it right (billboards on major roads surrounding but not necessarily in front of the court house, never approaching individuals in any way) could get into some interesting legal battles. Do it right and it is plainly free speech; if I were to write/publish a book instead of design/rent billboards it would be very unambiguously legal. The entertainment comes in the form of seeing how they would try to stop me.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/indictment-against-julian-heicklen-jury-nullification-advocate-is-dismissed.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/20/nyregion/indictment-agains...
  - rollo_tommasi 13y ago
    Given how jury nullification was traditionally used, that fallout will probably also include accusations of virulent racism. I'm not sure a lot of more libertarian types who advocate for jury-nullification are fully aware that the reason it was suppressed was that it was for decades a mechanism to basically let white guys kills black guys consequence-free.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      This is one of the reasons "fuck you" money is necessary. Jury nullification is a tool, it is not itself racist, though those who have other reasons to oppose it of course paint it as such. With "fuck you" money, much of that sort of slander loses its teeth.
    - reginaldjcooper 13y ago
      I did not know that. I still stand by nullification as a possible solution to marijuana possession charges or the more egregious "excessive downloading" felonies. But it would be horrific to watch it used by twelve racists to free actual murderers :(
gamblor956 13y ago
Tell that to all the Zynga employees who made 83(b) elections and are now underwater! 83(b) entails being taxed on the value of stock/options when purchased/received (i.e., as compensation), rather than when vested or when exercised. It's great if the value of the stock increases, but you're substantially worse off economically (taking the time value of money into account) if the value of the stock decreases.
- gohrt 13y ago
  What valuation did those underwater employees get?
mahyarm 13y ago
Unless the total price of the stock grant is financially negligible at the point of hire, the %5 tax difference isn't that great of an advantage compared to the risk since most startups fail. I think vested stock options not expiring a few months after leaving the company is far more valuable, but no one does that. It would allow you to put no money down and only exercise when the options are actually liquid without being forced to purchase the stock at some point due to circumstances not under your control.

tomp 13y ago

Are you sure about that? Do non-Americans have the same rights as Americans? Can they refuse to talk to the police, refuse to let the police into their home without a warrant, have an attorney present, ...?

drone 13y ago
Yes, all persons on US soil are to be protected by the constitution. (Not withstanding specific incidents of abuse, the fact that one is, or isn't a citizen is not intended to have any effect on the constitutional rights available.)
- marvin 13y ago
  Is it really as simple as this in practice? Does anyone have any experience with this? As a foreigner, I have huge respect for the amount of trouble that the immigration authorities can cause for you if they figure they don't like your face.
  - jrochkind1 13y ago
    The law is that simple. Actual practice may not be -- but talking to the cops sure didn't help the guy in this story, did it? It made things worse. A lot worse. But yeah, if the government wants to fuck with you, they can surely fuck with you. Your best defense is getting a lawyer asap and not talking to the cops without a lawyer.
  - jonknee 13y ago
    He would have been quite lucky to be deported. It's also sadly a much different game when you have access to funds--most people don't call a lawyer because it's expensive.
  - dragontamer 13y ago
    Miranda Rights. Even foreigners are entitled to a public defender. Prosecutors aren't allowed to even talk to you without giving you your Miranda Rights first (except in very very limited situations) EDIT: It seems like Immigration is treated differently from other criminal cases. But it seems like if you're arrested by the typical FBI agent (ie: some sort of crime), you're gonna get Miranda Rights read to you, and the option for a free public lawyer.

rhizome 13y ago

Even more on point: ALWAYS record interactions with the FBI: http://jonathanturley.org/2013/05/11/why-the-fbi-doesnt-record-interrogations/ http://jonathanturley.org/2013/05/11/why-the-fbi-doesnt-reco... http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130516/18383623114/your-word-against-ours-how-fbis-no-electronic-recording-policy-rigs-game-destroys-its-credibility.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130516/18383623114/your-w... http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/05/10/beware-fbi-when-not-recording/yz55UX8WMKU080pN4aP68K/story.html http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/05/10/beware-fbi-whe... http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070402_FBI_Memo.pdf http://www.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070402_FBI_Me...

psychometry 13y ago
Unless you live in a multiple-party wiretap consent state, in which case you've committed additional crimes.
- rhizome 13y ago
  None of those articles promote surreptitious recording. You tell them you will only speak while being recorded (with a lawyer, natch), then they go away.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

ChuckMcM 13y ago

The best answer to the question "Can I ask you a few questions?" is "Sure! Just give me your card and I'll have my attorney set something up." Gives them nowhere to go but home.

dustingetz 13y ago
This is far too oversimplified to be the third comment I read in this thread, sorry.

RestlessMind 13y ago

I don't know anyone in my circles who "has" a lawyer. So what to do when you encounter a situation with law enforcement officials? If I am at home, sure, I can search for a nearby lawyer's contact information. But what if I am at airport or some place where I cannot search for one? How do I find a lawyer in that case?

VladRussian2 13y ago
"If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you before any questioning, if you wish." it is when you're arrested. Until arrested - my understanding that one don't have to answer questions. Though personally i found it is really impossible to insist on your rights, i basically just chicken under stress : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142434 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6142434
- hso9791 13y ago
  "Am I free to go?"