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Looking at the prototype graph UIs it feels like the design misses the mark significantly. Without organizational or auto-layout features that makes the flows e

by Detrus 13y ago

Looking at the prototype graph UIs it feels like the design misses the mark significantly. Without organizational or auto-layout features that makes the flows easy to follow it's still spaghetti. Looking at some other flow chart designs that weren't inappropriately inspired by subway maps http://www.businessprocessincubator.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/n/e/new_employee_as-is-example.jpg http://www.businessprocessincubator.com/media/catalog/produc... http://www.businessprocessincubator.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/n/incident_2.png http://www.businessprocessincubator.com/media/catalog/produc... http://www.file-extensions.org/imgs/app-picture/2731/labview.png http://www.file-extensions.org/imgs/app-picture/2731/labview... http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/gendev/images/Example_LABview_diagram.png http://www.computer-solutions.co.uk/gendev/images/Example_LA... Seems there were several design ideas they just ditched? Particularly organizing flows around containers that hold smaller pieces. LabView has this functionality and even then you get some flows that are visually useless http://forums.ni.com/attachments/ni/130/3008/1/Run_away_diagram.jpg http://forums.ni.com/attachments/ni/130/3008/1/Run_away_diag... like their text based counterparts. But simpler flows are clearer than NoFlo. Meemoo also has a confusing interface. They're twisting flow lines to make more of the UI fit on screen. Is there a clear overview where the flow lines are straight? Quarz Composer and building Facebook in it is a convoluted nightmare. They could have built a Facebook prototype far easier with Flash Builder and a bit of ActionScript. Keyframe animations are best done in an interface that supports them instead of generic connect the dots. All that said I believe flow based programming has a lot of potential. But to make it viable for flows that are more complex than straight command lines or 20 elements you need visual tools that are more sophisticated than subway maps. Popularizing flow programming would at the very least motivate programmers to build components that work together.

RogerL 13y ago
Layout is NP-hard. Actually, it is NP-impossible. How does an algorithm know that in this case I want to emphasize how my code interacts with the IP stack (top of page higher layers), in this next page I want to emphasize change over time (later operations to the right and down), and so on? I assert without proof that any programming model that requires me to do layout is one that does not scale and will fail. Any model that does not allow me to suck in and work with 1MM lines of enterprise code will fail. I don't direct this at NoFLo, which I haven't used, it's a more general comment directed to the multiple attempts over the decades for a visual interface. It works great for domain specific, small problems, and falls flat for larger problems and larger code bases. Anyone trying to make a new tool should be aware of the history and difficulties.
- Detrus 13y ago
  I'd guess that for your example you'd have labels on the flow components that approximate the order of events. So in the visualizer it can display them in almost linear order. When you want to view low level vs high level code, you switch layouts. May have to manually label your components low level vs high level. So you won't see everything at once but noticeably more useful. Hard to tell how far ahead these guys thought this through. Maybe with community interest and a cool looking product they'd attract enough people to work out these details. But judging by comments and relative lack of interest, won't be holding my breath.

by Detrus 13y ago

RogerL 13y ago

Layout is NP-hard. Actually, it is NP-impossible. How does an algorithm know that in this case I want to emphasize how my code interacts with the IP stack (top of page higher layers), in this next page I want to emphasize change over time (later operations to the right and down), and so on? I assert without proof that any programming model that requires me to do layout is one that does not scale and will fail. Any model that does not allow me to suck in and work with 1MM lines of enterprise code will fail. I don't direct this at NoFLo, which I haven't used, it's a more general comment directed to the multiple attempts over the decades for a visual interface. It works great for domain specific, small problems, and falls flat for larger problems and larger code bases. Anyone trying to make a new tool should be aware of the history and difficulties.

Detrus 13y ago
I'd guess that for your example you'd have labels on the flow components that approximate the order of events. So in the visualizer it can display them in almost linear order. When you want to view low level vs high level code, you switch layouts. May have to manually label your components low level vs high level. So you won't see everything at once but noticeably more useful. Hard to tell how far ahead these guys thought this through. Maybe with community interest and a cool looking product they'd attract enough people to work out these details. But judging by comments and relative lack of interest, won't be holding my breath.