4 ms·

Did you seriously just advocate intentional lying as a political device? That's a nasty road that ends in a dark place.

by gruseom 13y ago

harshreality 13y ago
Darker than having the NSA collect a good portion of unencrypted internet traffic, and an unknown amount of traffic that was supposed to be secure in transit but might be obtained through back door deals with the service providers themselves? Darker than having a ton of laws nobody can follow and an increasingly militarized police force to enforce those laws? I'm curious, what darkness do you see in ordinary citizens lying, or drawing unfounded connections between events, to try to shift the political system and social consciousness toward more freedom? Are you one of those people who views telling the absolute truth as a categorical imperative? How much of the anti-British rhetoric of pre-revolution United States (colonies) do you view as lies? A lot of political activity, advertising, and news involves lies of some type (omission, accidental lies, misleading statements... not just answering "yes" when you know the true answer is "no").
- tptacek 13y ago
  Yes, darker than those things. When the vector for change is lies, the party that lies most effectively wins. Guess what: that's not us.
  - harshreality 13y ago
    Not lying won't keep the other side from lying.
    - tptacek 13y ago
      The point of not lying isn't to make the other side not lie.
  - sneak 13y ago
    I refer you to the statements made by the DNI to Congress, or Obama to Charlie Rose. Furthermore, the media concocts completely fabricated narrative hung upon zero to minimal facts all the time, to devastating effect. I refer you to the whole Snowden's girlfriend thing, or the Martin/Zimmerman thing, or the recent "google something and feds arrive" thing. It's all made-up bullshit that people buy into en masse. It causes them to become so passionate about their adopted stance, even contrary factual data later will be ignored. Public opinion _will_ be managed, and policy _will_ be changed as a result. This is the playing field we stand upon today, like it or not. (Personally, I hate it - but I do not deny the state of affairs.) The enemy has demonstrated a willingness to lie endlessly to obtain and sustain illegal power over us. The path is clear. I vastly prefer to be effective than unimpeachable.
  - sneak 13y ago
    > Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. The quote is from Göring at Nuremberg, but it holds true regardless.

Did you seriously just advocate intentional lying as a political device? That's a nasty road that ends in a dark place.

by gruseom 13y ago

Did you seriously just advocate intentional lying as a political device? That's a nasty road that ends in a dark place.

Darker than having the NSA collect a good portion of unencrypted internet traffic, and an unknown amount of traffic that was supposed to be secure in transit but might be obtained through back door deals with the service providers themselves? Darker than having a ton of laws nobody can follow and an increasingly militarized police force to enforce those laws? I'm curious, what darkness do you see in ordinary citizens lying, or drawing unfounded connections between events, to try to shift the political system and social consciousness toward more freedom? Are you one of those people who views telling the absolute truth as a categorical imperative? How much of the anti-British rhetoric of pre-revolution United States (colonies) do you view as lies? A lot of political activity, advertising, and news involves lies of some type (omission, accidental lies, misleading statements... not just answering "yes" when you know the true answer is "no").

tptacek 13y ago
Yes, darker than those things. When the vector for change is lies, the party that lies most effectively wins. Guess what: that's not us.
- harshreality 13y ago
  Not lying won't keep the other side from lying.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    The point of not lying isn't to make the other side not lie.
- sneak 13y ago
  I refer you to the statements made by the DNI to Congress, or Obama to Charlie Rose. Furthermore, the media concocts completely fabricated narrative hung upon zero to minimal facts all the time, to devastating effect. I refer you to the whole Snowden's girlfriend thing, or the Martin/Zimmerman thing, or the recent "google something and feds arrive" thing. It's all made-up bullshit that people buy into en masse. It causes them to become so passionate about their adopted stance, even contrary factual data later will be ignored. Public opinion _will_ be managed, and policy _will_ be changed as a result. This is the playing field we stand upon today, like it or not. (Personally, I hate it - but I do not deny the state of affairs.) The enemy has demonstrated a willingness to lie endlessly to obtain and sustain illegal power over us. The path is clear. I vastly prefer to be effective than unimpeachable.
- sneak 13y ago
  > Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger. The quote is from Göring at Nuremberg, but it holds true regardless.