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Really asserting your rights gets you even more screwed by the police. You usually catch a charge relating to resisting arrest, or even obstruction of justice.

by s_q_b 13y ago

Really asserting your rights gets you even more screwed by the police. You usually catch a charge relating to resisting arrest, or even obstruction of justice. What I've often wondered is if we could just troll them somehow. Something to the effect of, if at every traffic stop everyone said, "I'm not sure, but I think it's possible there's a kilo of heroin in my trunk." Obviously more thought is necessary for the idea, and you'd need a big campaign, but for non-terrorism related issues (nth disclaimer, my view differs from much of HN on that subject) it's time for the government to stop searching citizens on a regular basis. I literally can't believe we have roadside checkpoints, which we all know aren't simply for DUIs, and "stop-and-frisk" as fully condoned policy in American cities.

llamataboot 13y ago
It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process, but it is /not/ true that asserting your rights often gets you more screwed. It can, but it is more likely that the cops will back off and let you go. A simple youtube search for videos of people insisting on their rights shows this. Perpetuating the "you'll be fucked if you try to demand that police act legally" meme is dangerous for all of us, as it makes it more likely people will simply acquiesce to illegal searches (which makes them legal) etc. I don't judge anyone who because of fear, history, immigration status, responsibilities, etc doesn't want to go toe to toe with a cop, but it's simply not true that the cops will usually just arrest you. Usually they back down, and occasionally escalate the situation. I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search.
- s_q_b 13y ago
  For the record, I always assert my rights, and I've seen both results. Since I was never breaking the law, it's always worked out in my favor. I'm certainly not suggesting that people don't avail themselves of their legal rights, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that there can be potential consequences for which one should be prepared. But I can tell you a significant amount of police officers will become very aggressive, and I've been threatened with arrest on numerous occasions. Having the luxury of knowing several great attorneys personally and professionally is all that kept me from spending a night in a jail cell once when I refused a street search of my person. Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Ask anyone in Northeast DC how it went last time they tried to assert their rights. >It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process I can also say that once charged, it's a lengthy, difficult, and expensive process to prove your innocence, even when it's blatantly obvious. The prosecutor wants a win on his record for his statistics, and will hold charges over your head or threaten to add additional charges to attempt to force a plea bargain. I've seen it happen all the time. >I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search. That would be the point. If enough law-abiding citizens force the police to conduct pointless searches, we could tie up resources. It's not a fully formed suggestion, just a blue-sky brainstorming idea of sit-in type legal activities to protest unreasonable search and seizure.
  - llamataboot 13y ago
    Cop watch is another idea that I have suggested elsewhere (and been extensively involved in). Nearly everyone has little video cameras in their pockets these days. Surveillance of the police should become so ubiquitous as to be normal and expected - both so it protects the people doing the "watching" and because it will change the feeling of not being accountable to the public on the streets. For the record, I'm one of those annoying activists and in many (hundreds?) of police encounters I have never been arrested while filming and arrested twice while asserting my rights to not be detained for no reason. I think it's almost a moral duty, if you're someone who doesn't get targeted by the police anyway, and have little to lose (except comfort) from a night or two in jail, that you take a hardline stand against police overreach, but I would never begrudge anyone who doesn't chose to do so for whatever reason: personal comfort level, kids at home, immigration status, prior record, etc.
    - s_q_b 13y ago
      I love the idea of cop watch. The Justice Department's specific guidance that taping the police was one of the rare moments over the past few years that I've been very proud of the Obama administration. I wish someone sold a discrete, always-on dashcam and personal cam that uploaded to a remote server, with an encryption setup so that only the user could unlock it. It would be useful for personal protection, both from criminals and the police. Little brother may be the best way to fight back against Big Brother.
  - sneak 13y ago
    > For the record, I always assert my rights Do you do this when re-entering the US from abroad? I do this every time (assert my right to remain silent when questioned) and it usually results in my arrest, thorough search, and detainment for between 1 and 12 hours. One time they sent the bus without me and then kicked me out of the border point with no phone or transportation in northern Vermont in a snowstorm in February. Being a US citizen, they have to let me in, but they sure don't like doing it, so they go to every effort to threaten, intimidate me, and ruin my day (despite my maintaining a 100% professional and polite attitude throughout). > Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Over 90% of the time I assert my right to remain silent at the US border, I get arrested and threatened and harassed for >3 hours.
- ds9 13y ago
  While I agree about the longterm effects of consents to searches or answering questions, but people just can't afford to risk standing on their rights. An arrest can cause bankrutcy or permanent injuries from brutal cellmates, and a warranted search can mean extensive destruction of property (just before this I read: http://search.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4041727&cid=44449015 http://search.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4041727&cid=44449...)
  - s_q_b 13y ago
    Yeah, searches of homes or cars can really just be straight out ransacking. There should be a statute that the government has to pay for damages incurred during searches, especially if they're ruled improper.

by s_q_b 13y ago

llamataboot 13y ago

It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process, but it is /not/ true that asserting your rights often gets you more screwed. It can, but it is more likely that the cops will back off and let you go. A simple youtube search for videos of people insisting on their rights shows this. Perpetuating the "you'll be fucked if you try to demand that police act legally" meme is dangerous for all of us, as it makes it more likely people will simply acquiesce to illegal searches (which makes them legal) etc. I don't judge anyone who because of fear, history, immigration status, responsibilities, etc doesn't want to go toe to toe with a cop, but it's simply not true that the cops will usually just arrest you. Usually they back down, and occasionally escalate the situation. I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search.

s_q_b 13y ago
For the record, I always assert my rights, and I've seen both results. Since I was never breaking the law, it's always worked out in my favor. I'm certainly not suggesting that people don't avail themselves of their legal rights, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that there can be potential consequences for which one should be prepared. But I can tell you a significant amount of police officers will become very aggressive, and I've been threatened with arrest on numerous occasions. Having the luxury of knowing several great attorneys personally and professionally is all that kept me from spending a night in a jail cell once when I refused a street search of my person. Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Ask anyone in Northeast DC how it went last time they tried to assert their rights. >It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process I can also say that once charged, it's a lengthy, difficult, and expensive process to prove your innocence, even when it's blatantly obvious. The prosecutor wants a win on his record for his statistics, and will hold charges over your head or threaten to add additional charges to attempt to force a plea bargain. I've seen it happen all the time. >I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search. That would be the point. If enough law-abiding citizens force the police to conduct pointless searches, we could tie up resources. It's not a fully formed suggestion, just a blue-sky brainstorming idea of sit-in type legal activities to protest unreasonable search and seizure.
- llamataboot 13y ago
  Cop watch is another idea that I have suggested elsewhere (and been extensively involved in). Nearly everyone has little video cameras in their pockets these days. Surveillance of the police should become so ubiquitous as to be normal and expected - both so it protects the people doing the "watching" and because it will change the feeling of not being accountable to the public on the streets. For the record, I'm one of those annoying activists and in many (hundreds?) of police encounters I have never been arrested while filming and arrested twice while asserting my rights to not be detained for no reason. I think it's almost a moral duty, if you're someone who doesn't get targeted by the police anyway, and have little to lose (except comfort) from a night or two in jail, that you take a hardline stand against police overreach, but I would never begrudge anyone who doesn't chose to do so for whatever reason: personal comfort level, kids at home, immigration status, prior record, etc.
  - s_q_b 13y ago
    I love the idea of cop watch. The Justice Department's specific guidance that taping the police was one of the rare moments over the past few years that I've been very proud of the Obama administration. I wish someone sold a discrete, always-on dashcam and personal cam that uploaded to a remote server, with an encryption setup so that only the user could unlock it. It would be useful for personal protection, both from criminals and the police. Little brother may be the best way to fight back against Big Brother.
- sneak 13y ago
  > For the record, I always assert my rights Do you do this when re-entering the US from abroad? I do this every time (assert my right to remain silent when questioned) and it usually results in my arrest, thorough search, and detainment for between 1 and 12 hours. One time they sent the bus without me and then kicked me out of the border point with no phone or transportation in northern Vermont in a snowstorm in February. Being a US citizen, they have to let me in, but they sure don't like doing it, so they go to every effort to threaten, intimidate me, and ruin my day (despite my maintaining a 100% professional and polite attitude throughout). > Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Over 90% of the time I assert my right to remain silent at the US border, I get arrested and threatened and harassed for >3 hours.
ds9 13y ago
While I agree about the longterm effects of consents to searches or answering questions, but people just can't afford to risk standing on their rights. An arrest can cause bankrutcy or permanent injuries from brutal cellmates, and a warranted search can mean extensive destruction of property (just before this I read: http://search.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4041727&cid=44449015 http://search.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4041727&cid=44449...)
- s_q_b 13y ago
  Yeah, searches of homes or cars can really just be straight out ransacking. There should be a statute that the government has to pay for damages incurred during searches, especially if they're ruled improper.