5 ms·

The family should have refused to answer questions without an attorney present, as this could easily fall under a 4th Amendment violation on the part of the gov

The family should have refused to answer questions without an attorney present, as this could easily fall under a 4th Amendment violation on the part of the government. How to resist warrentless searches (roadside checkpoints): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ku17CqdZg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ku17CqdZg

gmoore 13y ago
perhaps...but it's really hard to take that stand with half dozen armed men are on your porch...
- llamataboot 13y ago
  This is what the cops count on. Same as in DUI checkpoints, telling you to just let them search your trunk when they pull you over for speeding and then they'll let you get on your way, etc. The initial response by cops to saying things like "Are you detaining me?" "Am I under arrest or am I free to go?" "Do you have a warrant?" is usually pretty hostile - things like "You don't want to know what happens if I have to wake up the judge for a warrant at this time of night" "Do you have something to hide?" "I'm just doing my job, why don't you just let me do it and we can both get on our way, etc" -- Depending on the personalities of the cops involved, it can rapidly switch back and forth from good cop to bad cop. But they really do work and generally will respect the rule of law if you stand up for it. They are trained to make you give up your rights voluntarily, not to abuse them and possibly have a lawsuit etc on their heads. (Note: this may not apply if you are not white)
  - HSO 13y ago
    > (Note: this may not apply if you are not white) …chilling
  - anu_gupta 13y ago
    Does any of this apply if you are not a US citizen? As a non-US citizen, if I come to the US on holiday, what rights do I have, if any? [edited to add] Answering my own question, this PDF from the ACLU seems to have some answers: http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english_4.pdf http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english_4.pdf "Non-citizens who are in the United States—no matter what their immigration status—generally have the same constitutional rights as citizens when law enforcement officers stop, question, arrest, or search them or their homes. " However "Non-citizens at the border who are trying to enter the U.S. do not have all the same rights. "
    - llamataboot 13y ago
      You also have the right not to disclose your immigration status to ICE without speaking with a lawyer first, you have the right to have your consulate notified if you get arrested, and generally cops aren't allowed to just randomly ask people for their immigration status. Note: at the border none if this applies. It is pretty much a "rights free zone"
    - smsm42 13y ago
      Constitution applies to everybody, except at US Customs, which is an official Constitution-free zone.
Florin_Andrei 13y ago
I wish there was a text version of this thing, in simple and concise sentences.
- Sheepshow 13y ago
  Reminds me of "here's one weird tip to prevent unlawful search and seizure"
- redblacktree 13y ago
  You may find this to be helpful. (and entertaining at the same time) http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_Mason_Article.pdf http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_M...
s_q_b 13y ago
Really asserting your rights gets you even more screwed by the police. You usually catch a charge relating to resisting arrest, or even obstruction of justice. What I've often wondered is if we could just troll them somehow. Something to the effect of, if at every traffic stop everyone said, "I'm not sure, but I think it's possible there's a kilo of heroin in my trunk." Obviously more thought is necessary for the idea, and you'd need a big campaign, but for non-terrorism related issues (nth disclaimer, my view differs from much of HN on that subject) it's time for the government to stop searching citizens on a regular basis. I literally can't believe we have roadside checkpoints, which we all know aren't simply for DUIs, and "stop-and-frisk" as fully condoned policy in American cities.
- llamataboot 13y ago
  It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process, but it is /not/ true that asserting your rights often gets you more screwed. It can, but it is more likely that the cops will back off and let you go. A simple youtube search for videos of people insisting on their rights shows this. Perpetuating the "you'll be fucked if you try to demand that police act legally" meme is dangerous for all of us, as it makes it more likely people will simply acquiesce to illegal searches (which makes them legal) etc. I don't judge anyone who because of fear, history, immigration status, responsibilities, etc doesn't want to go toe to toe with a cop, but it's simply not true that the cops will usually just arrest you. Usually they back down, and occasionally escalate the situation. I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search.
  - s_q_b 13y ago
    For the record, I always assert my rights, and I've seen both results. Since I was never breaking the law, it's always worked out in my favor. I'm certainly not suggesting that people don't avail themselves of their legal rights, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that there can be potential consequences for which one should be prepared. But I can tell you a significant amount of police officers will become very aggressive, and I've been threatened with arrest on numerous occasions. Having the luxury of knowing several great attorneys personally and professionally is all that kept me from spending a night in a jail cell once when I refused a street search of my person. Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Ask anyone in Northeast DC how it went last time they tried to assert their rights. >It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process I can also say that once charged, it's a lengthy, difficult, and expensive process to prove your innocence, even when it's blatantly obvious. The prosecutor wants a win on his record for his statistics, and will hold charges over your head or threaten to add additional charges to attempt to force a plea bargain. I've seen it happen all the time. >I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search. That would be the point. If enough law-abiding citizens force the police to conduct pointless searches, we could tie up resources. It's not a fully formed suggestion, just a blue-sky brainstorming idea of sit-in type legal activities to protest unreasonable search and seizure.
epo 13y ago
A typical forum windbag full of "what you should have done" advice for an incident at which they were not present and have never experienced. If you were at home with your family and 6 armed men turned up at your house, you'd want them to go away as quickly as possible.

gmoore 13y ago

perhaps...but it's really hard to take that stand with half dozen armed men are on your porch...

llamataboot 13y ago
This is what the cops count on. Same as in DUI checkpoints, telling you to just let them search your trunk when they pull you over for speeding and then they'll let you get on your way, etc. The initial response by cops to saying things like "Are you detaining me?" "Am I under arrest or am I free to go?" "Do you have a warrant?" is usually pretty hostile - things like "You don't want to know what happens if I have to wake up the judge for a warrant at this time of night" "Do you have something to hide?" "I'm just doing my job, why don't you just let me do it and we can both get on our way, etc" -- Depending on the personalities of the cops involved, it can rapidly switch back and forth from good cop to bad cop. But they really do work and generally will respect the rule of law if you stand up for it. They are trained to make you give up your rights voluntarily, not to abuse them and possibly have a lawsuit etc on their heads. (Note: this may not apply if you are not white)
- HSO 13y ago
  > (Note: this may not apply if you are not white) …chilling
- anu_gupta 13y ago
  Does any of this apply if you are not a US citizen? As a non-US citizen, if I come to the US on holiday, what rights do I have, if any? [edited to add] Answering my own question, this PDF from the ACLU seems to have some answers: http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english_4.pdf http://www.aclu.org/files/kyr/kyr_english_4.pdf "Non-citizens who are in the United States—no matter what their immigration status—generally have the same constitutional rights as citizens when law enforcement officers stop, question, arrest, or search them or their homes. " However "Non-citizens at the border who are trying to enter the U.S. do not have all the same rights. "
  - llamataboot 13y ago
    You also have the right not to disclose your immigration status to ICE without speaking with a lawyer first, you have the right to have your consulate notified if you get arrested, and generally cops aren't allowed to just randomly ask people for their immigration status. Note: at the border none if this applies. It is pretty much a "rights free zone"
  - smsm42 13y ago
    Constitution applies to everybody, except at US Customs, which is an official Constitution-free zone.

Florin_Andrei 13y ago

I wish there was a text version of this thing, in simple and concise sentences.

Sheepshow 13y ago
Reminds me of "here's one weird tip to prevent unlawful search and seizure"
redblacktree 13y ago
You may find this to be helpful. (and entertaining at the same time) http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_Mason_Article.pdf http://slu.edu/Documents/law/Law%20Journal/Archives/LJ56-2_M...

s_q_b 13y ago

Really asserting your rights gets you even more screwed by the police. You usually catch a charge relating to resisting arrest, or even obstruction of justice. What I've often wondered is if we could just troll them somehow. Something to the effect of, if at every traffic stop everyone said, "I'm not sure, but I think it's possible there's a kilo of heroin in my trunk." Obviously more thought is necessary for the idea, and you'd need a big campaign, but for non-terrorism related issues (nth disclaimer, my view differs from much of HN on that subject) it's time for the government to stop searching citizens on a regular basis. I literally can't believe we have roadside checkpoints, which we all know aren't simply for DUIs, and "stop-and-frisk" as fully condoned policy in American cities.

llamataboot 13y ago
It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process, but it is /not/ true that asserting your rights often gets you more screwed. It can, but it is more likely that the cops will back off and let you go. A simple youtube search for videos of people insisting on their rights shows this. Perpetuating the "you'll be fucked if you try to demand that police act legally" meme is dangerous for all of us, as it makes it more likely people will simply acquiesce to illegal searches (which makes them legal) etc. I don't judge anyone who because of fear, history, immigration status, responsibilities, etc doesn't want to go toe to toe with a cop, but it's simply not true that the cops will usually just arrest you. Usually they back down, and occasionally escalate the situation. I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search.
- s_q_b 13y ago
  For the record, I always assert my rights, and I've seen both results. Since I was never breaking the law, it's always worked out in my favor. I'm certainly not suggesting that people don't avail themselves of their legal rights, quite the opposite. I'm just pointing out that there can be potential consequences for which one should be prepared. But I can tell you a significant amount of police officers will become very aggressive, and I've been threatened with arrest on numerous occasions. Having the luxury of knowing several great attorneys personally and professionally is all that kept me from spending a night in a jail cell once when I refused a street search of my person. Those YouTube videos exist because they show extraordinary events, not common ones. Ask anyone in Northeast DC how it went last time they tried to assert their rights. >It is possible to get (and fight) and charge like Obstruction of Legal Process I can also say that once charged, it's a lengthy, difficult, and expensive process to prove your innocence, even when it's blatantly obvious. The prosecutor wants a win on his record for his statistics, and will hold charges over your head or threaten to add additional charges to attempt to force a plea bargain. I've seen it happen all the time. >I would not joke about having a kilo of heroin in your trunk as that gives probable cause for the search. That would be the point. If enough law-abiding citizens force the police to conduct pointless searches, we could tie up resources. It's not a fully formed suggestion, just a blue-sky brainstorming idea of sit-in type legal activities to protest unreasonable search and seizure.

epo 13y ago

A typical forum windbag full of "what you should have done" advice for an incident at which they were not present and have never experienced. If you were at home with your family and 6 armed men turned up at your house, you'd want them to go away as quickly as possible.