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More damning than the headline here is that GCHQ apparently explicitly stated that a major selling point for the partnership is the UK's lax legal regime, which

by emhart 13y ago

More damning than the headline here is that GCHQ apparently explicitly stated that a major selling point for the partnership is the UK's lax legal regime, which allows them to be "Less constrained by NSA's concerns about compliance."

jivatmanx 13y ago
It's been reported elsewhere that the NSA may uses GCHQ to spy on Americans, as a deliberate run around the fourth amendment. I guess, funding GCHQ makes that worse, as well.
- swombat 13y ago
  Of course, it's perfectly fine to circumvent a foundational privacy law of your country by paying a foreign spy agency to do it on your behalf. What could possibly be ethically dubious about that?
  - lutze 13y ago
    Look at it from the other way too. A foreign agency is secretly funnelling money into an institution that's supposed to be looking after my (as a UK citizen) interests. I think it's well past time this incestuous charade was exposed.
- ihsw 13y ago
  These allegations have been widely reported since the start of the Snowden leaks two months ago and both General Alexander and DNI Clapper have both claimed that they don't "run around" the Fourth Amendment in this fashion. It's interesting to see the USG contradictions and hypocrisy coming to light in this fashion, especially since their lies are increasingly egregious and continuous. There is an image[1] of their operations that is especially interesting, and one can interpret it in multiple ways. For example the colors likely represent intelligence reciprocity, but it could also be construed to identify allies and enemies. Since America is yellow then it could represent weak intelligence gathering effectiveness, and it stands to reason that allies likely spy on Americans for us. I wonder how much legal liability that opens up for them? Perhaps they're leery of spying on Americans. [1] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Boundless-heatmap-large-001.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Boundless...
VladRussian2 13y ago
basically NSA outsources "good government jobs" because of UK lax legal regime. Just like private companies shipping jobs to China :)
b0rsuk 13y ago
In other words, they're finding ways to follow the law to the letter, but work around its spirit. What's the point of a safety net if you decide to ignore it ?
grkvlt 13y ago
Well, this partnership has been known for a while now, certainly before Snowden. The _original_ deal was made during World War II (the 1943 BRUSA [1] agreement) and was then superseded by the UKUSA [2] agreement (or Five Eyes) which also included Canada and Australia/New Zealand. This definitely continued until 1956, by which time the Cold War was the main reason for co-operation. It's been publicly available since June 2010, which is when the full contents of the original document were released to the UK National Archives in Kew, and simultaneously declassified by NSA [4]. It is generally assumed that the arrangement is still active, and is being updated on an ongoing basis by the participating agencies. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_BRUSA_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_BRUSA_Agreement [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement [3] http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/ http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/ [4] http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/ukusa.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/ukusa.shtml

by emhart 13y ago

jivatmanx 13y ago

It's been reported elsewhere that the NSA may uses GCHQ to spy on Americans, as a deliberate run around the fourth amendment. I guess, funding GCHQ makes that worse, as well.

swombat 13y ago
Of course, it's perfectly fine to circumvent a foundational privacy law of your country by paying a foreign spy agency to do it on your behalf. What could possibly be ethically dubious about that?
- lutze 13y ago
  Look at it from the other way too. A foreign agency is secretly funnelling money into an institution that's supposed to be looking after my (as a UK citizen) interests. I think it's well past time this incestuous charade was exposed.
ihsw 13y ago
These allegations have been widely reported since the start of the Snowden leaks two months ago and both General Alexander and DNI Clapper have both claimed that they don't "run around" the Fourth Amendment in this fashion. It's interesting to see the USG contradictions and hypocrisy coming to light in this fashion, especially since their lies are increasingly egregious and continuous. There is an image[1] of their operations that is especially interesting, and one can interpret it in multiple ways. For example the colors likely represent intelligence reciprocity, but it could also be construed to identify allies and enemies. Since America is yellow then it could represent weak intelligence gathering effectiveness, and it stands to reason that allies likely spy on Americans for us. I wonder how much legal liability that opens up for them? Perhaps they're leery of spying on Americans. [1] http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Boundless-heatmap-large-001.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Boundless...

VladRussian2 13y ago

basically NSA outsources "good government jobs" because of UK lax legal regime. Just like private companies shipping jobs to China :)

b0rsuk 13y ago

In other words, they're finding ways to follow the law to the letter, but work around its spirit. What's the point of a safety net if you decide to ignore it ?

grkvlt 13y ago

Well, this partnership has been known for a while now, certainly before Snowden. The _original_ deal was made during World War II (the 1943 BRUSA [1] agreement) and was then superseded by the UKUSA [2] agreement (or Five Eyes) which also included Canada and Australia/New Zealand. This definitely continued until 1956, by which time the Cold War was the main reason for co-operation. It's been publicly available since June 2010, which is when the full contents of the original document were released to the UK National Archives in Kew, and simultaneously declassified by NSA [4]. It is generally assumed that the arrangement is still active, and is being updated on an ongoing basis by the participating agencies. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_BRUSA_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_BRUSA_Agreement [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement [3] http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/ http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/ [4] http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/ukusa.shtml http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/ukusa.shtml