6 ms·

I would not have let them in with out a warrant.

by lizzard 13y ago

mindcrime 13y ago
Same here. I'm at a point now where I've basically wholesale adopted the "don't talk to the police" mindset. A few nights ago, I went through one of those DUI checkpoints. I handed the cop my license, and then he started asking me questions: Cop: "Where are you headed?" Me: "That's none of your business." Him: <surprised look> Different night, different DUI checkpoint: Cop: "Where are you coming from?" Me: "Sorry, I don't answer questions for cops unless I'm under arrest and have an attorney present." Cop: "That's a pretty intense position, any particular reason for it?" Me: "It's just a matter of principle. This is a free country and we don't have a Gestapo or a Stasi here that we have to answer to, and somebody needs to remind you guys of that." Cop: <looking in my window with his flashlight> "You always ride around with all this stuff in your truck?" Me: <forgetting for a moment that I'm not planning to answer any questions> "Yeah" Cop: "You moving?" Me: "I just told you, I don't answer questions unless I'm under arrest and have a lawyer present. If you think you have probable cause to arrest me for a crime, arrest me, I'll call a lawyer and we'll do this right." Cop: <finally noticing all the anarchist and anti-govt. stickers on my truck> "Oh, I see the stickers now. I guess you think of yourself as sovereign, huh?" Me: "I guess that's an open question, isn't it?" Cop: "Good luck with that. Have a good night." So yeah, technically speaking I did answer a couple of his questions, one out of sheer instinct, and two that were "meta" questions in a sense. But the point is, this is now how I routinely deal with the police. You want to search my car? Get a warrant. You want to play twenty questions? Arrest me and wait until my lawyer is in the room. Etc.
- cpursley 13y ago
  Interesting. Sounds like a pretty intelligent officer to ask "Oh, I see the stickers now. I guess you think of yourself as sovereign, huh?" Most of the cops around me couldn't find their home town on a map if you pointed to it, let along understand what anarchism is.
  - mindcrime 13y ago
    Yeah, I was actually a little surprised by that myself. I doubt most average street officers understand much about the notion of "individual sovereignty" or know much anarchist theory. In this case, give the guy even more credit, because my particular "flavor" of anarchism is anarcho-capitalism, and the stickers include a "Read Rothbard" sticker, a "V for Voluntary" sticker, one that shows two stick-figure cops beating another stick figure and has a caption "Government, protecting and serving the shit out of you" and one generic circle-A sticker, mixed in with a bunch of mountain biking and heavy metal band stickers. OTOH, I know local police and state police do occasionally receive bulletins and notices and training stuff from the feds, and I think at least a few of those have mentioned anarchists and "individual sovereignty"... I think at least one of those got widely circulated on Slashdot, Reddit, here on HN, etc., under a headline like "The FBI Thinks You Are A Terrorist If You Read The Constitution" or something.
    - mturmon 13y ago
      The reason the sovereign citizen movement caught the attention of law enforcement is, of course, this incident: "...In 2010, two Arkansas police officers stopped sovereign-citizen extremists Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son Joseph during a routine traffic stop on Interstate 40. Joseph Kane jumped out of the vehicle and opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle, killing both officers..." See: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforceme...
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - mindcrime 13y ago
        I love this bit: The FBI considers sovereign-citizen extremists as comprising a domestic terrorist movement, which, scattered across the United States, has existed for decades What a load of shit. Sure, some people who refer to themselves as "sovereign individuals" have done things that would be considered terrorism, but by no means does believing in the inherent sovereignty of the individual automatically imply that someone is a terrorist.
- magicalist 13y ago
  Yeah, this is called being unnecessarily combative with a cop, and is asking for some serious trouble. All you need is a cop that's at the end of a long bad day, and eventual vindication (with a possible settlement) probably won't make up for the several months of grief. 1) Don't talk to cops 2) Don't be rude to cops lecturing the cops about your rights falls under #2. Ask if you're being detained, mention (politely!) that you only speak to cops with your attorney present if you must, and ask if you can go. Everything else in this not completely believable dialog is asking for trouble.
  - mindcrime 13y ago
    I was never rude with him at all. Text doesn't convey tone / etc. It was actually a very cordial conversation, and he seemed genuinely interested in why somebody would adhere to such a strict stance. I could tell that he probably doesn't agree with my political stances, but that's OK. As for #2... fuck that. I'm not required to be "polite", and I'm not required to make their job easy. I'll be polite if it suits me and if they're polite to me. Otherwise, I see no reason to treat a cop like he/she is somebody special. A cop is just another douchebag with a gun and badge, IMO. Being unduly deferential / subservient to them only promotes the kind of abuses that we are constantly railing against. All you need is a cop that's at the end of a long bad day, and eventual vindication (with a possible settlement) probably won't make up for the several months of grief. That's a chance I'm perfectly willing to live with. That said, I'm 40 now, and I've been this way since I was probably 14 or so, when I got my mom pulled over because I flipped off a state trooper as we were passing by... Hell, I even flat out told one cop that he was just a glorified bean-counter, enforcing bureaucratic nonsense, and that if he really wanted to contribute to society that he should quit his job and go become a firefighter. They get huffy and annoyed, but nothing significant has ever happened. Doesn't mean a pissed off cop won't shoot me to death tomorrow, but whatever. Everything else in this not completely believable dialog is asking for trouble. Why do you say it's not completely believable? Unfortunately I don't have a recording or anything, but I promise you, that's exactly how it went down, modulo small mistakes due to my imperfect memory.
  - alan_cx 13y ago
    Interesting. So you just forget about your rights, and accept abuse of them. You also think querying a situation is "combative"? Why use the word "lecturing"? Why not telling, or informing? Sound all a bit "do as you are told little boy, as I have a gun" to me. I suppose its consistent with US foreign policy. I suppose if the US gov expect to bully nation states around because the US has the most military power and can bomb folk back to the stone age if they don't comply, then treating its own citizens like that and expecting them to cower to the gun makes sense. As I say, it consistent at least. Gotta respect that.
- aet 13y ago
  Do you realize police look for people changing their behavior or "acting strange"? That is what you were doing.. inviting more scrutiny.
  - mindcrime 13y ago
    That's fine. At the end of the day, I know whether I've actually done anything wrong or not, and I'm not interested in supplicating myself to some overgrown schoolyard bully.
    - aet 13y ago
      Fair enough.
- gohrt 13y ago
  Keep it simple to avoid slipping into trouble. "Am I under arrest, sir?" "Am I free to go, sir?" "Am I under arrest, sir?" "Am I free to go, sir?"
Yver 13y ago
Indeed, if searching for pressure cookers and backpacks really get law enforcement to your door (assuming this article is factual) then you definitely don't want them to look into your garage/toolshed where you may have some fertilizer, gasoline, metal canisters, bolts, nails, etc...
- sophacles 13y ago
  I've always been very curious about "bomb making materials" reported in the news. A reasonably clever person can turn common household items into "bombs" - a rapid exothermic reaction and a containment vessel with "good" failure properties and there you go. Does anyone realize just what a person could do by just having bleach and ammonia!? Extra paranoid: Think about how much shrapnel material you are "hiding" in your computer - all those little screws cleverly disguised as "holding it in the right places".
  - keithpeter 13y ago
    I'm looking at my piano (freshly tuned) in a somewhat different light now, thanks.
btipling 13y ago
"I would not have let them in." No you should not get in their way. Don't give them permission if they ask if that is your desire, but don't get in their way. For what it's worth police don't need a warrant to enter your house, they just need probable cause a crime is in progress. If you try to stop police as they attempt to enter, you may find yourself arrested for getting in their way.
- magicalist 13y ago
  There's nothing in lizzard's post to suggest physically barricading the house against law enforcement. Meanwhile if you read the article, you'll see that according to the author's account, the police did indeed ask the husband "if they could search the house". Always say no[1]. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

I would not have let them in with out a warrant.

by lizzard 13y ago

I would not have let them in with out a warrant.

Same here. I'm at a point now where I've basically wholesale adopted the "don't talk to the police" mindset. A few nights ago, I went through one of those DUI checkpoints. I handed the cop my license, and then he started asking me questions: Cop: "Where are you headed?" Me: "That's none of your business." Him: <surprised look> Different night, different DUI checkpoint: Cop: "Where are you coming from?" Me: "Sorry, I don't answer questions for cops unless I'm under arrest and have an attorney present." Cop: "That's a pretty intense position, any particular reason for it?" Me: "It's just a matter of principle. This is a free country and we don't have a Gestapo or a Stasi here that we have to answer to, and somebody needs to remind you guys of that." Cop: <looking in my window with his flashlight> "You always ride around with all this stuff in your truck?" Me: <forgetting for a moment that I'm not planning to answer any questions> "Yeah" Cop: "You moving?" Me: "I just told you, I don't answer questions unless I'm under arrest and have a lawyer present. If you think you have probable cause to arrest me for a crime, arrest me, I'll call a lawyer and we'll do this right." Cop: <finally noticing all the anarchist and anti-govt. stickers on my truck> "Oh, I see the stickers now. I guess you think of yourself as sovereign, huh?" Me: "I guess that's an open question, isn't it?" Cop: "Good luck with that. Have a good night." So yeah, technically speaking I did answer a couple of his questions, one out of sheer instinct, and two that were "meta" questions in a sense. But the point is, this is now how I routinely deal with the police. You want to search my car? Get a warrant. You want to play twenty questions? Arrest me and wait until my lawyer is in the room. Etc.

cpursley 13y ago
Interesting. Sounds like a pretty intelligent officer to ask "Oh, I see the stickers now. I guess you think of yourself as sovereign, huh?" Most of the cops around me couldn't find their home town on a map if you pointed to it, let along understand what anarchism is.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  Yeah, I was actually a little surprised by that myself. I doubt most average street officers understand much about the notion of "individual sovereignty" or know much anarchist theory. In this case, give the guy even more credit, because my particular "flavor" of anarchism is anarcho-capitalism, and the stickers include a "Read Rothbard" sticker, a "V for Voluntary" sticker, one that shows two stick-figure cops beating another stick figure and has a caption "Government, protecting and serving the shit out of you" and one generic circle-A sticker, mixed in with a bunch of mountain biking and heavy metal band stickers. OTOH, I know local police and state police do occasionally receive bulletins and notices and training stuff from the feds, and I think at least a few of those have mentioned anarchists and "individual sovereignty"... I think at least one of those got widely circulated on Slashdot, Reddit, here on HN, etc., under a headline like "The FBI Thinks You Are A Terrorist If You Read The Constitution" or something.
  - mturmon 13y ago
    The reason the sovereign citizen movement caught the attention of law enforcement is, of course, this incident: "...In 2010, two Arkansas police officers stopped sovereign-citizen extremists Jerry Kane and his 16-year-old son Joseph during a routine traffic stop on Interstate 40. Joseph Kane jumped out of the vehicle and opened fire with an AK-47 assault rifle, killing both officers..." See: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforcement-bulletin/september-2011/sovereign-citizens http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/law-enforceme...
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - mindcrime 13y ago
      I love this bit: The FBI considers sovereign-citizen extremists as comprising a domestic terrorist movement, which, scattered across the United States, has existed for decades What a load of shit. Sure, some people who refer to themselves as "sovereign individuals" have done things that would be considered terrorism, but by no means does believing in the inherent sovereignty of the individual automatically imply that someone is a terrorist.
magicalist 13y ago
Yeah, this is called being unnecessarily combative with a cop, and is asking for some serious trouble. All you need is a cop that's at the end of a long bad day, and eventual vindication (with a possible settlement) probably won't make up for the several months of grief. 1) Don't talk to cops 2) Don't be rude to cops lecturing the cops about your rights falls under #2. Ask if you're being detained, mention (politely!) that you only speak to cops with your attorney present if you must, and ask if you can go. Everything else in this not completely believable dialog is asking for trouble.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  I was never rude with him at all. Text doesn't convey tone / etc. It was actually a very cordial conversation, and he seemed genuinely interested in why somebody would adhere to such a strict stance. I could tell that he probably doesn't agree with my political stances, but that's OK. As for #2... fuck that. I'm not required to be "polite", and I'm not required to make their job easy. I'll be polite if it suits me and if they're polite to me. Otherwise, I see no reason to treat a cop like he/she is somebody special. A cop is just another douchebag with a gun and badge, IMO. Being unduly deferential / subservient to them only promotes the kind of abuses that we are constantly railing against. All you need is a cop that's at the end of a long bad day, and eventual vindication (with a possible settlement) probably won't make up for the several months of grief. That's a chance I'm perfectly willing to live with. That said, I'm 40 now, and I've been this way since I was probably 14 or so, when I got my mom pulled over because I flipped off a state trooper as we were passing by... Hell, I even flat out told one cop that he was just a glorified bean-counter, enforcing bureaucratic nonsense, and that if he really wanted to contribute to society that he should quit his job and go become a firefighter. They get huffy and annoyed, but nothing significant has ever happened. Doesn't mean a pissed off cop won't shoot me to death tomorrow, but whatever. Everything else in this not completely believable dialog is asking for trouble. Why do you say it's not completely believable? Unfortunately I don't have a recording or anything, but I promise you, that's exactly how it went down, modulo small mistakes due to my imperfect memory.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  Interesting. So you just forget about your rights, and accept abuse of them. You also think querying a situation is "combative"? Why use the word "lecturing"? Why not telling, or informing? Sound all a bit "do as you are told little boy, as I have a gun" to me. I suppose its consistent with US foreign policy. I suppose if the US gov expect to bully nation states around because the US has the most military power and can bomb folk back to the stone age if they don't comply, then treating its own citizens like that and expecting them to cower to the gun makes sense. As I say, it consistent at least. Gotta respect that.
aet 13y ago
Do you realize police look for people changing their behavior or "acting strange"? That is what you were doing.. inviting more scrutiny.
- mindcrime 13y ago
  That's fine. At the end of the day, I know whether I've actually done anything wrong or not, and I'm not interested in supplicating myself to some overgrown schoolyard bully.
  - aet 13y ago
    Fair enough.
gohrt 13y ago
Keep it simple to avoid slipping into trouble. "Am I under arrest, sir?" "Am I free to go, sir?" "Am I under arrest, sir?" "Am I free to go, sir?"

Yver 13y ago

Indeed, if searching for pressure cookers and backpacks really get law enforcement to your door (assuming this article is factual) then you definitely don't want them to look into your garage/toolshed where you may have some fertilizer, gasoline, metal canisters, bolts, nails, etc...

sophacles 13y ago
I've always been very curious about "bomb making materials" reported in the news. A reasonably clever person can turn common household items into "bombs" - a rapid exothermic reaction and a containment vessel with "good" failure properties and there you go. Does anyone realize just what a person could do by just having bleach and ammonia!? Extra paranoid: Think about how much shrapnel material you are "hiding" in your computer - all those little screws cleverly disguised as "holding it in the right places".
- keithpeter 13y ago
  I'm looking at my piano (freshly tuned) in a somewhat different light now, thanks.

btipling 13y ago

"I would not have let them in." No you should not get in their way. Don't give them permission if they ask if that is your desire, but don't get in their way. For what it's worth police don't need a warrant to enter your house, they just need probable cause a crime is in progress. If you try to stop police as they attempt to enter, you may find yourself arrested for getting in their way.

magicalist 13y ago
There's nothing in lizzard's post to suggest physically barricading the house against law enforcement. Meanwhile if you read the article, you'll see that according to the author's account, the police did indeed ask the husband "if they could search the house". Always say no[1]. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc