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57% of those polled would prefer all that, today. Source: http://kommersant.ru/doc/2243079 http://kommersant.ru/doc/2243079

by jaxb 13y ago

Demiurge 13y ago
I am a recently naturalized US Citizen, from Russia. In magic scenario USSR would be restored, I would go back and work in an institute, like my father happily did.
- ash 13y ago
  Before you happily go to (hypothetically restored) USSR, please read about the fate of Italian aircraft designer Robert Bartini, who moved to USSR in 1923. In 1938 he was imprisoned and spent 14 years working in sharashkas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ludvigovich_Bartini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ludvigovich_Bartini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka Be careful what you wish for.
  - geoka9 13y ago
    Hell, you didn't need to be an Italian to get "conscripted" into a sharashka. Some of the best Russian aircraft designers (e.g. Tupolev) were contributing to the Russian war (WWII) effort from prison.
    - ash 13y ago
      Yes. In fact, Tupolev worked with Bartini in the same sharashka (TsKB 29 NKVD - ЦКБ 29 НКВД). See "Tupolevskaya Sharaga" by Kerber (in Russian): http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/KERBER/tupolewskaya_sharaga.txt http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/KERBER/tupolewskaya_sharaga.txt
  - Demiurge 13y ago
    Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I am aware of the actual ratio of the horror stories to reality. The reality is not as bleak as what the western propaganda made USSR out to be while it was out to destroy the only alternative political system on the same planet.
    - ash 13y ago
      > I am aware of the actual ratio of the horror stories to reality And what is the ratio? For example, try calculating this ratio for aircraft designers of the period: imprisoned_designers / free_designers. I don't think the result would be pretty. I was interested enough to make (completely unscientific) assessment of what happened to some of the emigrants to USSR. I've looked through all 8 Finnish emigrants listed in Wikipedia category [1]. The result isn't pretty: 3 executed during Great Purge, 1 commited suicide, 1 killed during civil war, 1 "lucky" to die just before Great Purge. The rest 2 were politicians (one of which was very high ranking). No scientists or engineers or technicians. And here is the same assessment of all 7 American emigrants listed in Wikipedia category [2]: 3 spies; 1 scientist (Arnold Lokshin); 1 composer (Karl Rautio); 1 short-term technician, not allowed to go back to US, Gulag prisoner (Alexander Dolgun); 1 car toolmaker, not allowed to go back to US for 44 years (Robert Robinson). Ignoring spies, we've got 2 miserable fates, and 2 good fates. So your ratio for US emigrants is 2/2. And those two are good mostly because of political reasons: the composer of Anthem of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic; and asylum seeking scientist. Do you still want to move to (hypothetically restored) USSR? [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_emigrants_to_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_emigrants_to_t... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_emigrants_to_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_emigrants_to_...
  - Demiurge 13y ago
    I didn't realize until much later, but linking to a 60 year old events as a detriment to an action NOW is absolutely ridiculous. It's like, yeah, thank god I'm not Japanese, so I don't have to be imprisoned in a concentration camp right now!
    - ash 13y ago
      Initially you wrote: "In magic scenario USSR would be restored, I would go back and work in an institute". You didn't mention what kind of USSR would you like to be restored. Of course, there were different periods in Soviet history, with various rate and cruelty of persecutions. To stress my point I chose one of the most hideous periods. But unfair persecutions were always there.
      - Demiurge 13y ago
        If USSR was restored, it would obviously be the period of 2013. The pre-Gorbochev era was what my 'father' should obviously reference. The 'cruelties' of the Soviet period are directly related to the cruelties of the world at large, such as preparations for WW2.
        ash 13y ago
        > The 'cruelties' of the Soviet period are directly related to the cruelties of the world at large, such as preparations for WW2. This statement is so generic, that it's very hard to argue about it. "World at large", "directly related" - what do mean by those exactly? Pre-Gorbachev era was certainly safer to live in than Stalin era. But I would argue that "cruelty" was actually one the pillars of the Soviet system. Totalitarian system couldn't survive without the excessive use of force. That's why it's called "totalitarian". Less cruelty leads to less control, and finally leads to collapse of the system. Foreign intervention had very little to do with the collapse of USSR.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110719/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110719/ has a scene right about people like you.

57% of those polled would prefer all that, today. Source: http://kommersant.ru/doc/2243079 http://kommersant.ru/doc/2243079

by jaxb 13y ago

57% of those polled would prefer all that, today. Source: http://kommersant.ru/doc/2243079 http://kommersant.ru/doc/2243079

Demiurge 13y ago

I am a recently naturalized US Citizen, from Russia. In magic scenario USSR would be restored, I would go back and work in an institute, like my father happily did.

ash 13y ago
Before you happily go to (hypothetically restored) USSR, please read about the fate of Italian aircraft designer Robert Bartini, who moved to USSR in 1923. In 1938 he was imprisoned and spent 14 years working in sharashkas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ludvigovich_Bartini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ludvigovich_Bartini http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharashka Be careful what you wish for.
- geoka9 13y ago
  Hell, you didn't need to be an Italian to get "conscripted" into a sharashka. Some of the best Russian aircraft designers (e.g. Tupolev) were contributing to the Russian war (WWII) effort from prison.
  - ash 13y ago
    Yes. In fact, Tupolev worked with Bartini in the same sharashka (TsKB 29 NKVD - ЦКБ 29 НКВД). See "Tupolevskaya Sharaga" by Kerber (in Russian): http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/KERBER/tupolewskaya_sharaga.txt http://www.lib.ru/MEMUARY/KERBER/tupolewskaya_sharaga.txt
- Demiurge 13y ago
  Thanks, but I'm pretty sure I am aware of the actual ratio of the horror stories to reality. The reality is not as bleak as what the western propaganda made USSR out to be while it was out to destroy the only alternative political system on the same planet.
  - ash 13y ago
    > I am aware of the actual ratio of the horror stories to reality And what is the ratio? For example, try calculating this ratio for aircraft designers of the period: imprisoned_designers / free_designers. I don't think the result would be pretty. I was interested enough to make (completely unscientific) assessment of what happened to some of the emigrants to USSR. I've looked through all 8 Finnish emigrants listed in Wikipedia category [1]. The result isn't pretty: 3 executed during Great Purge, 1 commited suicide, 1 killed during civil war, 1 "lucky" to die just before Great Purge. The rest 2 were politicians (one of which was very high ranking). No scientists or engineers or technicians. And here is the same assessment of all 7 American emigrants listed in Wikipedia category [2]: 3 spies; 1 scientist (Arnold Lokshin); 1 composer (Karl Rautio); 1 short-term technician, not allowed to go back to US, Gulag prisoner (Alexander Dolgun); 1 car toolmaker, not allowed to go back to US for 44 years (Robert Robinson). Ignoring spies, we've got 2 miserable fates, and 2 good fates. So your ratio for US emigrants is 2/2. And those two are good mostly because of political reasons: the composer of Anthem of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic; and asylum seeking scientist. Do you still want to move to (hypothetically restored) USSR? [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_emigrants_to_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Finnish_emigrants_to_t... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_emigrants_to_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_emigrants_to_...
- Demiurge 13y ago
  I didn't realize until much later, but linking to a 60 year old events as a detriment to an action NOW is absolutely ridiculous. It's like, yeah, thank god I'm not Japanese, so I don't have to be imprisoned in a concentration camp right now!
  - ash 13y ago
    Initially you wrote: "In magic scenario USSR would be restored, I would go back and work in an institute". You didn't mention what kind of USSR would you like to be restored. Of course, there were different periods in Soviet history, with various rate and cruelty of persecutions. To stress my point I chose one of the most hideous periods. But unfair persecutions were always there.
    - Demiurge 13y ago
      If USSR was restored, it would obviously be the period of 2013. The pre-Gorbochev era was what my 'father' should obviously reference. The 'cruelties' of the Soviet period are directly related to the cruelties of the world at large, such as preparations for WW2.
      - ash 13y ago
        > The 'cruelties' of the Soviet period are directly related to the cruelties of the world at large, such as preparations for WW2. This statement is so generic, that it's very hard to argue about it. "World at large", "directly related" - what do mean by those exactly? Pre-Gorbachev era was certainly safer to live in than Stalin era. But I would argue that "cruelty" was actually one the pillars of the Soviet system. Totalitarian system couldn't survive without the excessive use of force. That's why it's called "totalitarian". Less cruelty leads to less control, and finally leads to collapse of the system. Foreign intervention had very little to do with the collapse of USSR.
VladRussian2 13y ago
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110719/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110719/ has a scene right about people like you.