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I wanted to read this because I believe it's a great article, but the fact that he doesn't use semicolons pretty much turned me off. While I was looking at the

I wanted to read this because I believe it's a great article, but the fact that he doesn't use semicolons pretty much turned me off. While I was looking at the JavaScript code my brain almost exploded.

pests 13y ago
Did you see the article he linked about why he doesn't use them? http://mislav.uniqpath.com/2010/05/semicolons/ http://mislav.uniqpath.com/2010/05/semicolons/ Not reading an article because of that would be like not reading other code because it uses 2 spaces for tabs instead of 4. Makes no difference to the language, only to you.
- wldlyinaccurate 13y ago
  The thing is, semicolons do make a difference with JavaScript. It's now 404ing, but there was a pretty well-known argument on one of Twitter Bootstrap's GitHub issues[1]. The Bootstrap guys didn't use semicolons, and it caused problems when minifying the code. It's an edge case, I know, but it was a problem. I never understood the whole anti-semicolon thing anyway. It just seems really hipster to me. Use CoffeeScript, if you don't want semicolons. [1] https://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/issues/3057
  - jalfresi 13y ago
    I've always equated javascript without semi-colons with missing comments and poor commit messages. It's just inconsiderate to other developers who have to read your code. I understand that it is a "feature" of javascript (misfeature in my opinion), but the point that "everyone else does it is not a good argument" is false. We've got like 15 years of javascript written with semicolons. Stop being an inconsiderate prick and just friggin write the code like everyone else! Don't be that guy (or gal). Comment your code. Write good commit messages. Use semicolons in your javascript.
  - tg3 13y ago
    If it caused problems when minifying the code, the problem was with the minifier not parsing correctly - a minifier shouldn't change the way the code is interpreted. I understand that using existing minifiers is a possible reason to use semicolons, but not using semicolons is not an inherent issue here.
  - ealexhudson 13y ago
    It shouldn't, they genuinely are optional, and Javascript coders need to know when they can be inserted because you can't turn that behaviour off. However, needing to understand the rules is one thing - I much prefer to see the semi-colons in there. I dislike seeing any formatting that is substantially different from the accepted norm and find it harms readability.
  - marrs 13y ago
    Why does it seem hipster to use a language feature? Is it hipster to use null coalesce as well? The article linked above explains the reasons to omit semi-colons very well. I would personally prefer if JS forced you to terminate all statements with a semi-colon to avoid any ambiguity, but there you go. Speaking of ambiguity caused by whitespace, Coffeescript is a 1st degree offender for this. All you have to do is indent the wrong block of code, and you completely change the scope of a nested function, and you have no visual indication of your mistake whatsoever.
    - mradmin 13y ago
      It's hipster because it goes against the accepted standard way of writing Javascript. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1547647&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1547647&utm_source=twit...
      - marrs 13y ago
        My interpretation of "hipster" is being different because you think it's cool to be different. Being different because you think it's a better approach is called "making progress", either because you'll be proven right or proven wrong. I've thought about the de-facto standard way a lot and I think that it does nothing to avoid bugs while potentially misleading a coder about the language. Therefore I think it's worse. The only reason I follow the de-facto standard is because the time spent arguing about it with my peers is better spent getting work done.
        andypants 13y ago
        Nobody has any good reasons that apply to most people, both for and against semicolons. There really isn't a huge difference in either style except in rare cases. > The only reason I follow the de-facto standard is because the time spent arguing about it with my peers is better spent getting work done. Which is why that is an excellent reason. Standards are useful, so if there is one, stick to it. If there is no reason to go against the standard, then don't. > I think that it does nothing to avoid bugs while potentially misleading a coder about the language. Therefore I think it's worse. Not seeing any semicolons can also potentially mislead about the language. It is not worse, they are both misleading until you realise ASI exists. Omitting semicolons also does nothing to avoid bugs, and introduces a different (additional?) set of edge cases where bugs may appear.
  - testing12341234 13y ago
    The link to the issue you mention is broken because the bootstrap repository moved from twitter to twbs. The new link is https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/3057 https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/3057. Also note, that ultimately regardless of personal semicolon preference, this was an issue because of a parsing bug in JSMin. It was fixed in JSMin with this commit[0]. Other minifiers such as Closure and YUI did not exhibit any issues with the code as it had been written. [0] https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSMin/commit/5ca277ea452beae1c25db3bc0ef5c81309a3daf4 https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSMin/commit/5ca277ea452...
- wrboyce 13y ago
  The article (justifying not using semicolons) seems like a rant with not real aim, beside "I am right, semicolons are wrong - and I have all these half-baked ideas to back me up". The author was actually annoying me by the time I reached "It's good coding style". One example: > My advice on JSLint: don’t use it. Why would you use it? If you believed that it helps you have less bugs in your code, here’s a newsflash; only people can detect and solve software bugs, not tools. So instead of tools, get more people to look at your code. Pretty sure lots of people use JSLint, pep8 checkers, gofmt, or whatever the equivalent tool for the language at hand is. They certainly help, one cannot deny that. Then the author goes on to pick at Crockford for suggesting people space their JS with four spaces… Yep, I'm done.
  - martin-adams 13y ago
    Giving advice to not use JSLint without a real alternative is very naive in my opinion. When I was working with a team of developers with some novice JS developers, JSLint was a godsend to pick up simple, avoidable bugs while enforcing some sanity with regards to code style.
  - andypants 13y ago
    > only people can detect and solve software bugs, not tools Stupid compilers, they've been doing it wrong this whole time.
- stefanve 13y ago
  Maybe it is not necessary but I don't see anything against it. That was the weird thing about that article all kinds of semi legit reasons why it is not necessary to use them but no reason why not to use them. I would say if there are some semi legit reasons to use them and no reason not to use them than just use them :)
- gregorkas 13y ago
  I agree with you, but still, I look at (a lot of) JavaScript every day and it's hard to explain it, but for some reason I find the lack of semicolons disturbing. I have no problem with CoffeeScript and I've also worked with Python a lot so I appreciate a language without semicolons, but I don't approve mixing the styles. I think this is more of a psychological thing than a syntax thing because if you're used to a syntax of a language, it gets embedded in your brain and with years of practice you can spot a missing semicolon from a mile away after only a quick glance over the code. People are afraid of changes and if they are used to something and that thing is taken away they become unsettled. Or their brain explodes if they see JavaScript with missing semicolons :P.
- Donito 13y ago
  Terrible article in my opinion teaching some really bad habits that will cause hard to find bugs over time. Truth is, omitting semi-colons is probably fine at smaller scale, but for larger javascript code base with multiple maintainers, it's definitely a better practice in my opinion. Oh well, no point in me saying what has already been said :)
- coldtea 13y ago
  >Did you see the article he linked about why he doesn't use them? Yes, it's bollocks, goes against standard practice, and abuses a misfeature of the JS interpreter.
- nhebb 13y ago
  I defer to Brendan Eich on the matter: https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/the-infernal-semicolon/ https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/the-infernal-semicolon/
wwweston 13y ago
I totally understand the preference for using explicit statement termination in JS. I can even understand the general preference for a non-whitespace token to terminate a statement. But I don't understand why that would cause someone's brain to explode or otherwise make it difficult for them to pick out the author's points about the language from the example code.

pests 13y ago

Did you see the article he linked about why he doesn't use them? http://mislav.uniqpath.com/2010/05/semicolons/ http://mislav.uniqpath.com/2010/05/semicolons/ Not reading an article because of that would be like not reading other code because it uses 2 spaces for tabs instead of 4. Makes no difference to the language, only to you.

wldlyinaccurate 13y ago
The thing is, semicolons do make a difference with JavaScript. It's now 404ing, but there was a pretty well-known argument on one of Twitter Bootstrap's GitHub issues[1]. The Bootstrap guys didn't use semicolons, and it caused problems when minifying the code. It's an edge case, I know, but it was a problem. I never understood the whole anti-semicolon thing anyway. It just seems really hipster to me. Use CoffeeScript, if you don't want semicolons. [1] https://github.com/twitter/bootstrap/issues/3057
- jalfresi 13y ago
  I've always equated javascript without semi-colons with missing comments and poor commit messages. It's just inconsiderate to other developers who have to read your code. I understand that it is a "feature" of javascript (misfeature in my opinion), but the point that "everyone else does it is not a good argument" is false. We've got like 15 years of javascript written with semicolons. Stop being an inconsiderate prick and just friggin write the code like everyone else! Don't be that guy (or gal). Comment your code. Write good commit messages. Use semicolons in your javascript.
- tg3 13y ago
  If it caused problems when minifying the code, the problem was with the minifier not parsing correctly - a minifier shouldn't change the way the code is interpreted. I understand that using existing minifiers is a possible reason to use semicolons, but not using semicolons is not an inherent issue here.
- ealexhudson 13y ago
  It shouldn't, they genuinely are optional, and Javascript coders need to know when they can be inserted because you can't turn that behaviour off. However, needing to understand the rules is one thing - I much prefer to see the semi-colons in there. I dislike seeing any formatting that is substantially different from the accepted norm and find it harms readability.
- marrs 13y ago
  Why does it seem hipster to use a language feature? Is it hipster to use null coalesce as well? The article linked above explains the reasons to omit semi-colons very well. I would personally prefer if JS forced you to terminate all statements with a semi-colon to avoid any ambiguity, but there you go. Speaking of ambiguity caused by whitespace, Coffeescript is a 1st degree offender for this. All you have to do is indent the wrong block of code, and you completely change the scope of a nested function, and you have no visual indication of your mistake whatsoever.
  - mradmin 13y ago
    It's hipster because it goes against the accepted standard way of writing Javascript. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1547647&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1547647&utm_source=twit...
    - marrs 13y ago
      My interpretation of "hipster" is being different because you think it's cool to be different. Being different because you think it's a better approach is called "making progress", either because you'll be proven right or proven wrong. I've thought about the de-facto standard way a lot and I think that it does nothing to avoid bugs while potentially misleading a coder about the language. Therefore I think it's worse. The only reason I follow the de-facto standard is because the time spent arguing about it with my peers is better spent getting work done.
      - andypants 13y ago
        Nobody has any good reasons that apply to most people, both for and against semicolons. There really isn't a huge difference in either style except in rare cases. > The only reason I follow the de-facto standard is because the time spent arguing about it with my peers is better spent getting work done. Which is why that is an excellent reason. Standards are useful, so if there is one, stick to it. If there is no reason to go against the standard, then don't. > I think that it does nothing to avoid bugs while potentially misleading a coder about the language. Therefore I think it's worse. Not seeing any semicolons can also potentially mislead about the language. It is not worse, they are both misleading until you realise ASI exists. Omitting semicolons also does nothing to avoid bugs, and introduces a different (additional?) set of edge cases where bugs may appear.
- testing12341234 13y ago
  The link to the issue you mention is broken because the bootstrap repository moved from twitter to twbs. The new link is https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/3057 https://github.com/twbs/bootstrap/issues/3057. Also note, that ultimately regardless of personal semicolon preference, this was an issue because of a parsing bug in JSMin. It was fixed in JSMin with this commit[0]. Other minifiers such as Closure and YUI did not exhibit any issues with the code as it had been written. [0] https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSMin/commit/5ca277ea452beae1c25db3bc0ef5c81309a3daf4 https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSMin/commit/5ca277ea452...
wrboyce 13y ago
The article (justifying not using semicolons) seems like a rant with not real aim, beside "I am right, semicolons are wrong - and I have all these half-baked ideas to back me up". The author was actually annoying me by the time I reached "It's good coding style". One example: > My advice on JSLint: don’t use it. Why would you use it? If you believed that it helps you have less bugs in your code, here’s a newsflash; only people can detect and solve software bugs, not tools. So instead of tools, get more people to look at your code. Pretty sure lots of people use JSLint, pep8 checkers, gofmt, or whatever the equivalent tool for the language at hand is. They certainly help, one cannot deny that. Then the author goes on to pick at Crockford for suggesting people space their JS with four spaces… Yep, I'm done.
- martin-adams 13y ago
  Giving advice to not use JSLint without a real alternative is very naive in my opinion. When I was working with a team of developers with some novice JS developers, JSLint was a godsend to pick up simple, avoidable bugs while enforcing some sanity with regards to code style.
- andypants 13y ago
  > only people can detect and solve software bugs, not tools Stupid compilers, they've been doing it wrong this whole time.
stefanve 13y ago
Maybe it is not necessary but I don't see anything against it. That was the weird thing about that article all kinds of semi legit reasons why it is not necessary to use them but no reason why not to use them. I would say if there are some semi legit reasons to use them and no reason not to use them than just use them :)
gregorkas 13y ago
I agree with you, but still, I look at (a lot of) JavaScript every day and it's hard to explain it, but for some reason I find the lack of semicolons disturbing. I have no problem with CoffeeScript and I've also worked with Python a lot so I appreciate a language without semicolons, but I don't approve mixing the styles. I think this is more of a psychological thing than a syntax thing because if you're used to a syntax of a language, it gets embedded in your brain and with years of practice you can spot a missing semicolon from a mile away after only a quick glance over the code. People are afraid of changes and if they are used to something and that thing is taken away they become unsettled. Or their brain explodes if they see JavaScript with missing semicolons :P.
Donito 13y ago
Terrible article in my opinion teaching some really bad habits that will cause hard to find bugs over time. Truth is, omitting semi-colons is probably fine at smaller scale, but for larger javascript code base with multiple maintainers, it's definitely a better practice in my opinion. Oh well, no point in me saying what has already been said :)
coldtea 13y ago
>Did you see the article he linked about why he doesn't use them? Yes, it's bollocks, goes against standard practice, and abuses a misfeature of the JS interpreter.
nhebb 13y ago
I defer to Brendan Eich on the matter: https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/the-infernal-semicolon/ https://brendaneich.com/2012/04/the-infernal-semicolon/

wwweston 13y ago

I totally understand the preference for using explicit statement termination in JS. I can even understand the general preference for a non-whitespace token to terminate a statement. But I don't understand why that would cause someone's brain to explode or otherwise make it difficult for them to pick out the author's points about the language from the example code.