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Google Details PNaCl Native Client LLVM Bitcode

64 points by GravityWell 13y ago

eliben 13y ago
A couple of notes: "Google has begun making public the details concerning their Portable Native Client (PNaCl) implementation." To be completely fair, PNaCl is part of Chromium, and hence an open source project from the start. The code is freely available for anyone to see, check out and build, and has always been. "Portable Native Client comes down to compiling Google Native Client applications to a subset of LLVM bitcode that can then basically run anywhere that Native Client is supported. " I suppose Michael Larabel meant to say "compiling C and C++ applications" instead of "Google Native Client applications" here.
- gsnedders 13y ago
  Well, it started internally, it was mostly working when the code was open sourced. Not really an "open source project from the start", even if it has been for, well, years.
- lucian1900 13y ago
  I think it's correct saying NaCl apps, since the same API restrictions are imposed by PNaCl.
  - eliben 13y ago
    Once you compiled and published it, it's a NaCl app. Saying "compiling NaCl apps" is misleading because NaCl is a platform, not a language. The PNaCl toolchain can compile C and C++ (and theoretically other frontends can be added, as long as they lower to the PNaCl IR) to a blob that the browser can execute in a secure manner on all supported platforms and CPU architectures.
- exDM69 13y ago
  > To be completely fair, PNaCl is part of Chromium, and hence an open source project from the start. The code is freely available for anyone to see, check out and build, and has always been. I think the most important thing here is not the code, but rather the refinements to LLVM IR bitcode to make it more portable. Most of LLVM IR is already CPU/platform agnostic but parts of it are closely tied to the target architecture (which makes sense since LLVM IR was originally targeted at compilers). A standard portable subset of LLVM IR would be very welcome.
  - eliben 13y ago
    Well, there's a portable subset of LLVM IR there, for sure. Comments are welcome - we are very interested in feedback.
est 13y ago
Blogspam? http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2013-July/064394.html http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2013-July/064394....
- tadfisher 13y ago
  Worse, it's Phoronix.
  - delroth 13y ago
    Hate all you want on Phoronix, but I still don't know any other good "news aggregator" for X11, Linux GPU drivers and optimization news. It's not like everything on Phoronix comes from -announce mailing lists, they do a pretty good job at filtering noise from development mailing list and providing fresh news. They also always link to the original source if you're not happy about the quality of their articles.
mcosta 13y ago
Is me alone who sees NaCl as another kind of flash? It is just a blob running into a rectangle. No js accesible, almost no browser control over it. How web is this?
- pekk 13y ago
  Is HTML5 Canvas also another kind of Flash? Is your objection that NaCl is not a DOM manipulation API?
- Groxx 13y ago
  tbh, I see it as (possibly) a better java applet. with better OpenGL support, so "real" games are actually feasible, and not even that hard. Chrome is positioning itself very, very strongly as a platform, not just a browser, and this is a necessary part of that. I'm not a fan of this ever-widening set of things browsers have to do (separate from each other / external libs / etc) since it just raises the bar for any competitors, but I must admit it is nicer for the user than all the past attempts.
  - bad_user 13y ago
    > Chrome is positioning itself very, very strongly as a platform, not just a browser That makes no sense, because the browser is by definition a platform.
    - karl42 13y ago
      I don't know your definition of a browser, but in my opinion, a browser used to be mainly a document viewer. This is changing now, but the original statement does make sense in this context.
      - bad_user 13y ago
        When? In 1995?
  - RyanZAG 13y ago
    "Chrome is positioning itself very, very strongly as a platform" This is terrible and I wish they'd stop doing this and stick to working with Mozilla more.
ksec 13y ago
I hope this approach wins instead of asm.js
VikingCoder 13y ago
Almost the speed of native. As secure as possible. As portable as possible. It's definitely an interesting feature set. I personally hope ASM.JS is able to "catch up" to NaCl, but if it doesn't, then I hope PNaCl becomes widely available.

64 points by GravityWell 13y ago

A couple of notes: "Google has begun making public the details concerning their Portable Native Client (PNaCl) implementation." To be completely fair, PNaCl is part of Chromium, and hence an open source project from the start. The code is freely available for anyone to see, check out and build, and has always been. "Portable Native Client comes down to compiling Google Native Client applications to a subset of LLVM bitcode that can then basically run anywhere that Native Client is supported. " I suppose Michael Larabel meant to say "compiling C and C++ applications" instead of "Google Native Client applications" here.

gsnedders 13y ago
Well, it started internally, it was mostly working when the code was open sourced. Not really an "open source project from the start", even if it has been for, well, years.
lucian1900 13y ago
I think it's correct saying NaCl apps, since the same API restrictions are imposed by PNaCl.
- eliben 13y ago
  Once you compiled and published it, it's a NaCl app. Saying "compiling NaCl apps" is misleading because NaCl is a platform, not a language. The PNaCl toolchain can compile C and C++ (and theoretically other frontends can be added, as long as they lower to the PNaCl IR) to a blob that the browser can execute in a secure manner on all supported platforms and CPU architectures.
exDM69 13y ago
> To be completely fair, PNaCl is part of Chromium, and hence an open source project from the start. The code is freely available for anyone to see, check out and build, and has always been. I think the most important thing here is not the code, but rather the refinements to LLVM IR bitcode to make it more portable. Most of LLVM IR is already CPU/platform agnostic but parts of it are closely tied to the target architecture (which makes sense since LLVM IR was originally targeted at compilers). A standard portable subset of LLVM IR would be very welcome.
- eliben 13y ago
  Well, there's a portable subset of LLVM IR there, for sure. Comments are welcome - we are very interested in feedback.

est 13y ago

Blogspam? http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2013-July/064394.html http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/pipermail/llvmdev/2013-July/064394....

tadfisher 13y ago
Worse, it's Phoronix.
- delroth 13y ago
  Hate all you want on Phoronix, but I still don't know any other good "news aggregator" for X11, Linux GPU drivers and optimization news. It's not like everything on Phoronix comes from -announce mailing lists, they do a pretty good job at filtering noise from development mailing list and providing fresh news. They also always link to the original source if you're not happy about the quality of their articles.

mcosta 13y ago

Is me alone who sees NaCl as another kind of flash? It is just a blob running into a rectangle. No js accesible, almost no browser control over it. How web is this?

pekk 13y ago
Is HTML5 Canvas also another kind of Flash? Is your objection that NaCl is not a DOM manipulation API?
Groxx 13y ago
tbh, I see it as (possibly) a better java applet. with better OpenGL support, so "real" games are actually feasible, and not even that hard. Chrome is positioning itself very, very strongly as a platform, not just a browser, and this is a necessary part of that. I'm not a fan of this ever-widening set of things browsers have to do (separate from each other / external libs / etc) since it just raises the bar for any competitors, but I must admit it is nicer for the user than all the past attempts.
- bad_user 13y ago
  > Chrome is positioning itself very, very strongly as a platform, not just a browser That makes no sense, because the browser is by definition a platform.
  - karl42 13y ago
    I don't know your definition of a browser, but in my opinion, a browser used to be mainly a document viewer. This is changing now, but the original statement does make sense in this context.
    - bad_user 13y ago
      When? In 1995?
- RyanZAG 13y ago
  "Chrome is positioning itself very, very strongly as a platform" This is terrible and I wish they'd stop doing this and stick to working with Mozilla more.

ksec 13y ago

I hope this approach wins instead of asm.js

VikingCoder 13y ago

Almost the speed of native. As secure as possible. As portable as possible. It's definitely an interesting feature set. I personally hope ASM.JS is able to "catch up" to NaCl, but if it doesn't, then I hope PNaCl becomes widely available.