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Also: What does everybody expect from "the debate"? Is there a way we can get out of this mess? I currently don't see any, besides the one with massive loss.

Also: What does everybody expect from "the debate"? Is there a way we can get out of this mess? I currently don't see any, besides the one with massive loss. Please, anybody, correct me.

dllthomas 13y ago
Call me naive, but I would be surprised to learn that these systems are being used to overtly control the electoral process. So the way out of this mess is to talk to your friends and family and make sure they understand the issues and what is at stake, and make sure they do the same. Elect politicians who will do better - Obama promised and didn't deliver, but the issue only seemed to matter to a sliver of what were basically his base anyway. In the wake of an election with this issue more front-and-center, because the people have demanded the issue remain more front-and-center, I'm not convinced you'll see the same behavior.
- ihsw 13y ago
  The electoral process has already been subverted through gerrymandering and a two-party system. All the good, honest, hard-working folks get stuck together with the parasites and psychopaths. In either party there is a very wide range of people from salt-of-the-earth types to scum-of-the-earth. If you don't utilize gerrymandering then you lose, and if you're campaigning in a third-party then you lose.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    But that's not anything new, and there's not any reason to expect that subversion to prevent fixing these issues, and fundamentally if enough people are convinced, things will change - "enough" is higher than it probably should be, but I'm not convinced it's higher than it would need to be for a successful revolution or the like.
- northwest 13y ago
  > Elect politicians who will do better How? The 2-party system will simply not allow it. They have the monopoly over the 2 "choices" we're given each time. They will continue to give us "choices" that they can control. Remember how one of the earlier whistle blowers revealed that Obama had been under surveillance earlier? People who are under surveillance are controllable. If they are allowed to access power, it's really not a stretch to think that they just have the function of a puppet. The 2 parties are controlled by the campaign money donors, which are mostly corporate interests. Do you remember how the Republicans ejected Ron Paul from the debates by quickly changing the rules when he got traction? (Not that I would really want Ron Paul for President.) The media are controlled by the same interests, just look at how little coverage you find about the new slides in the mainstream media, today.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    The parties have a monopoly over the choices, but the parties aren't the NSA. They have much more of an interest in getting our votes and our donations than they have in letting other people spy. Unseating the current party machines enough to make a meaningful difference on this issue is likely to be hard, but I maintain that it's most likely more doable than violent revolution (and significantly less bloody, if we start soon). I certainly don't pretend it's easy - but convincing people is the way it will happen.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  An ex-president told us that won't work. Maybe we should listen and realize the problem is very serious.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    I don't disagree at all that the problem is very serious. "Talk and convince people" is a much more serious response than ranting about revolution or bitching on HN, and defeatism gets us nowhere. If you have further things to suggest, I'm all ears. I was out protesting on the 4th; I will be out again this 4th; "talk and convince people" isn't an argument for doing nothing, or for being lackadaisical about it. Get off your ass, engage with people, talk to them, and convince them first of the issue, and then that they need to do the same. And nothing Carter said - I assume you are referring to Carter's statements - were in absolutes. The system can be broken, it can be much harder to fix things than it should be, and yet it still might be our best means of fixing things. What is the alternative?

Also: What does everybody expect from "the debate"? Is there a way we can get out of this mess? I currently don't see any, besides the one with massive loss. Please, anybody, correct me.

dllthomas 13y ago

Call me naive, but I would be surprised to learn that these systems are being used to overtly control the electoral process. So the way out of this mess is to talk to your friends and family and make sure they understand the issues and what is at stake, and make sure they do the same. Elect politicians who will do better - Obama promised and didn't deliver, but the issue only seemed to matter to a sliver of what were basically his base anyway. In the wake of an election with this issue more front-and-center, because the people have demanded the issue remain more front-and-center, I'm not convinced you'll see the same behavior.

ihsw 13y ago
The electoral process has already been subverted through gerrymandering and a two-party system. All the good, honest, hard-working folks get stuck together with the parasites and psychopaths. In either party there is a very wide range of people from salt-of-the-earth types to scum-of-the-earth. If you don't utilize gerrymandering then you lose, and if you're campaigning in a third-party then you lose.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  But that's not anything new, and there's not any reason to expect that subversion to prevent fixing these issues, and fundamentally if enough people are convinced, things will change - "enough" is higher than it probably should be, but I'm not convinced it's higher than it would need to be for a successful revolution or the like.
northwest 13y ago
> Elect politicians who will do better How? The 2-party system will simply not allow it. They have the monopoly over the 2 "choices" we're given each time. They will continue to give us "choices" that they can control. Remember how one of the earlier whistle blowers revealed that Obama had been under surveillance earlier? People who are under surveillance are controllable. If they are allowed to access power, it's really not a stretch to think that they just have the function of a puppet. The 2 parties are controlled by the campaign money donors, which are mostly corporate interests. Do you remember how the Republicans ejected Ron Paul from the debates by quickly changing the rules when he got traction? (Not that I would really want Ron Paul for President.) The media are controlled by the same interests, just look at how little coverage you find about the new slides in the mainstream media, today.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  The parties have a monopoly over the choices, but the parties aren't the NSA. They have much more of an interest in getting our votes and our donations than they have in letting other people spy. Unseating the current party machines enough to make a meaningful difference on this issue is likely to be hard, but I maintain that it's most likely more doable than violent revolution (and significantly less bloody, if we start soon). I certainly don't pretend it's easy - but convincing people is the way it will happen.
Zigurd 13y ago
An ex-president told us that won't work. Maybe we should listen and realize the problem is very serious.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  I don't disagree at all that the problem is very serious. "Talk and convince people" is a much more serious response than ranting about revolution or bitching on HN, and defeatism gets us nowhere. If you have further things to suggest, I'm all ears. I was out protesting on the 4th; I will be out again this 4th; "talk and convince people" isn't an argument for doing nothing, or for being lackadaisical about it. Get off your ass, engage with people, talk to them, and convince them first of the issue, and then that they need to do the same. And nothing Carter said - I assume you are referring to Carter's statements - were in absolutes. The system can be broken, it can be much harder to fix things than it should be, and yet it still might be our best means of fixing things. What is the alternative?