3 ms·

I have anecdotes about how CoCs have improved communities, but I don't really want to play dueling anecdotes with you. It sucks that you've seen Coc's used as a

I have anecdotes about how CoCs have improved communities, but I don't really want to play dueling anecdotes with you. It sucks that you've seen Coc's used as a bludgeon; I haven't. However, it's sorta irrelevant here: we're not expecting this to really change much of anything, and we don't think the community needs improving. Like the FAQ says, "we know that the Django community is open, friendly, and welcoming. We want to make sure everyone else knows it too." The goal here is to articulate and write down the standards that we already basically follow but have been (until now) unwritten. In fact, if you're worried about having the book thrown at you, you should be happy about this change. Before today, if I thought you were being a jerk, I could throw you off IRC or the mailing list or whatever and that was that. I was, until a few hours ago, essentially sole arbiter of standards in the Django community, and those standards were ones that basically lived in my head until earlier this year. Now, those standards are written down, and there's a process and some oversight to make sure I don't unilaterally decide someone's worth hitting with the ban-hammer. So really, if you're honestly concerned about being people ousted for violated community policies, this sort of documentation and process should make you feel more comfortable, not less. We're replacing a BDFL-ship with open documentation, a committee, and organizational oversight.

skore 13y ago
I appreciate and agree with the points you are making. I really was talking general, it seems like my points were taken a little too much in a python or django related vein. I do think there are inherent problems with a CoC. You state that the rules probably won't change anything and I agree with that. I think that shows the power of an implicit agreement of conduct. Because even if a CoC tries to inform that, I remain unconvinced that it can. I suppose mostly what I have a problem with is the concept of expectation itself. A CoC is a lightning rod that is cited when people feel wronged. You sort of turn that around by saying that I might feel safer with explicit rules, but I could just as well argue that the more explicit the rules are, the more suspect they are to being misused or misinterpreted. Because what they do is create the explicit expectation that they will be upheld. What part of them and in what manner is subject to interpretation and those "toxic" people are usually quite inventive when it comes to finding such transgressions. Managing expectations like that can be a very tricky thing. I might be biased by my experience here, but I've just seen a little too often how making conduct a high ranking concern can create a vacuum that attracts politics. In the end, I'm quite certain that you are right with the beginning of your second paragraph. Although I would still say - If it's not needed and it won't change anything, then why have it? (And yes, I read your FAQ, so feel free to ignore this question ;-) )

skore 13y ago

I appreciate and agree with the points you are making. I really was talking general, it seems like my points were taken a little too much in a python or django related vein. I do think there are inherent problems with a CoC. You state that the rules probably won't change anything and I agree with that. I think that shows the power of an implicit agreement of conduct. Because even if a CoC tries to inform that, I remain unconvinced that it can. I suppose mostly what I have a problem with is the concept of expectation itself. A CoC is a lightning rod that is cited when people feel wronged. You sort of turn that around by saying that I might feel safer with explicit rules, but I could just as well argue that the more explicit the rules are, the more suspect they are to being misused or misinterpreted. Because what they do is create the explicit expectation that they will be upheld. What part of them and in what manner is subject to interpretation and those "toxic" people are usually quite inventive when it comes to finding such transgressions. Managing expectations like that can be a very tricky thing. I might be biased by my experience here, but I've just seen a little too often how making conduct a high ranking concern can create a vacuum that attracts politics. In the end, I'm quite certain that you are right with the beginning of your second paragraph. Although I would still say - If it's not needed and it won't change anything, then why have it? (And yes, I read your FAQ, so feel free to ignore this question ;-) )