5 ms·

These codes of conduct make the community look like a band of savages. I've been following the django user groups for years and haven't seen anything regarding

by zalew 13y ago

These codes of conduct make the community look like a band of savages. I've been following the django user groups for years and haven't seen anything regarding the issues presented there. What's the reason behind it (other than the #donglegate), if I may ask?

kingkilr 13y ago
We've tried to articulate the reason for having a code of conduct here: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need Basically the alternative to writing a code of conduct isn't not to have one, it's for it to be implicit and undocumented. Put another way: we've been moderating #django and other forums for a while, it's not fair that the rules for that were in our heads, and not on paper (bytes).
- zalew 13y ago
  I get it, every website has a ToS/Rules and such, and I even edited a few when I ran discussion boards. I'm pretty sure most all you said there can be wrapped up in one point "discrimination based on ethnic, sexual and religious grounds is forbidden" and such a statement exists almost by default in every ToS I remember seeing, without special announcements or making a scene. I see sexuality issues mentioned in 5 out of 8 of the points listed there - too obvious or not obvious enough what this CoC is about? Hence my 'band of savages' impression and the feeling these CoC are making a disservice for the people you are trying to protect.
sneak 13y ago
Considering they've explicitly thanked notoriously destructive concern-troll Valerie Aurora and her organization The Ada Initiative for assistance, my guess would be direct pressure to support her divisive and unproductive agenda.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jacobian 13y ago
  For the record: we reached out to Valerie, not the other way around. We did that because we value her opinion. It's interesting to me that you seem so angry about a group that's trying to bring more people into tech. What are you worried about, exactly?
  - sneak 13y ago
    Her agenda masquerades as something genuinely good and productive, yet pushes something orthogonal and unrelated. She's on a crusade. Most of the women I know in tech loathe these sorts of concern-trolls for giving feminists erroneous reputations of being hard to work with. Also, who's angry? I just think it's stupid to engage with such destructive people, but then again I don't participate in the Django community in any way so it doesn't affect me one way or the other. Also, giving them credence and strengthening their brand serves to help them undermine actual equality in our industry, but, again, I'm male, so it doesn't directly affect me. It's still stupid, though.
    - AdrianRossouw 13y ago
      i concur. i know a few female software developers who are completely comfortable amongst an all male group, but are terrified of speaking up when there is a mixed group. This type of feminist, and the ada group are known for this kind of behaviour specifically, are wont to turn on their own : http://violetblue.tumblr.com/post/44107008572/what-happened-with-my-security-bsides-talk http://violetblue.tumblr.com/post/44107008572/what-happened-... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-am-not-your-enemy-an-open-letter-to-my-feminist-critics/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-am-not-your-enemy-an-o...
    - kingkilr 13y ago
      Please don't think of diversity as an issue that doesn't affect you, because you are a man. A lack of diversity affects all of us. More diverse groups perform better. If a lack of diversity is a result of artificial barriers being put into place (such as a community not welcoming new members), then that less the effect an individuals right to self-determiniation, and I believe that's an issue that effects all of us.
jacobian 13y ago
You're completely right: these documents articulate a set of standards that we've essentially been following from day 1. Nothing's really changed except that now we've written down the unspoken rules that nearly everybody followed because, you know, they're good people. It's an "explicit is better than implicit" kinda of thing!

by zalew 13y ago

kingkilr 13y ago

We've tried to articulate the reason for having a code of conduct here: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need Basically the alternative to writing a code of conduct isn't not to have one, it's for it to be implicit and undocumented. Put another way: we've been moderating #django and other forums for a while, it's not fair that the rules for that were in our heads, and not on paper (bytes).

zalew 13y ago
I get it, every website has a ToS/Rules and such, and I even edited a few when I ran discussion boards. I'm pretty sure most all you said there can be wrapped up in one point "discrimination based on ethnic, sexual and religious grounds is forbidden" and such a statement exists almost by default in every ToS I remember seeing, without special announcements or making a scene. I see sexuality issues mentioned in 5 out of 8 of the points listed there - too obvious or not obvious enough what this CoC is about? Hence my 'band of savages' impression and the feeling these CoC are making a disservice for the people you are trying to protect.

sneak 13y ago

Considering they've explicitly thanked notoriously destructive concern-troll Valerie Aurora and her organization The Ada Initiative for assistance, my guess would be direct pressure to support her divisive and unproductive agenda.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jacobian 13y ago
For the record: we reached out to Valerie, not the other way around. We did that because we value her opinion. It's interesting to me that you seem so angry about a group that's trying to bring more people into tech. What are you worried about, exactly?
- sneak 13y ago
  Her agenda masquerades as something genuinely good and productive, yet pushes something orthogonal and unrelated. She's on a crusade. Most of the women I know in tech loathe these sorts of concern-trolls for giving feminists erroneous reputations of being hard to work with. Also, who's angry? I just think it's stupid to engage with such destructive people, but then again I don't participate in the Django community in any way so it doesn't affect me one way or the other. Also, giving them credence and strengthening their brand serves to help them undermine actual equality in our industry, but, again, I'm male, so it doesn't directly affect me. It's still stupid, though.
  - AdrianRossouw 13y ago
    i concur. i know a few female software developers who are completely comfortable amongst an all male group, but are terrified of speaking up when there is a mixed group. This type of feminist, and the ada group are known for this kind of behaviour specifically, are wont to turn on their own : http://violetblue.tumblr.com/post/44107008572/what-happened-with-my-security-bsides-talk http://violetblue.tumblr.com/post/44107008572/what-happened-... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-am-not-your-enemy-an-open-letter-to-my-feminist-critics/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/i-am-not-your-enemy-an-o...
  - kingkilr 13y ago
    Please don't think of diversity as an issue that doesn't affect you, because you are a man. A lack of diversity affects all of us. More diverse groups perform better. If a lack of diversity is a result of artificial barriers being put into place (such as a community not welcoming new members), then that less the effect an individuals right to self-determiniation, and I believe that's an issue that effects all of us.

jacobian 13y ago

You're completely right: these documents articulate a set of standards that we've essentially been following from day 1. Nothing's really changed except that now we've written down the unspoken rules that nearly everybody followed because, you know, they're good people. It's an "explicit is better than implicit" kinda of thing!