4 ms·

Agreed. You (the OP) need to be socialized. :-) There is a phenomenon I call the "Engineering Dance", where engineers and similar types go through a kind domi

by russell 17y ago

Agreed. You (the OP) need to be socialized. :-) There is a phenomenon I call the "Engineering Dance", where engineers and similar types go through a kind dominance ritual on first meeting, probing to see who is the most expert. This doesn't work in most social situations; most people dont like it. My SO has a masters in math and a minor in CS, but we dont talk about my work much at all. She's a painter; we talk about painting. I enjoy it because I'm learning a lot. I suggest finding a nontechnical interest and become good at it: music, art, literature. You dont have to be an artist or musician, just knowledgeable. Enlist a woman in the reclamation project. Their social skills really are better than ours, especially the extroverts. Dont look for a GF to do this. Enlist a sister or friend. The two of you can throw a barbecue or the like for the expanded set of friends. Most people have a socially adept friend. Use said friend for introductions.

stcredzero 17y ago
Let me say: I think that getting a girlfriend who will up and tell you when you are being an ass (later on, in private) is one of the best things you can do! "Engineering Dance" -- Guilty as charged! Brilliant name for it.
- russell 17y ago
  I definitely agree on the girlfriend, but from my experience that's even more difficult than learning social graces. It takes a perceptive woman to realize that underneath is a really good guy that just needs some help. Young women are often as dense in their own way as hackers. It took me years and the experience of a bad marriage to become acceptable to a good woman.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    Agreed, it took me years of being a jerk to women plus the good fortune of an ex turning into a friend and smacking me with the truth. My solution also involved perception, but on my part. I was able to spot the potential in a quiet, wallflowery girl at a party. Now I am blessed with a a very sweet, patient, intelligent, perceptive, and demurely sexy girlfriend. Another piece of advice -- all you nerdy guys out there who check off all the races except "African American" on dating site preferences -- do yourself a favor and stop it. There's lots of really cute nerdy gals out there who just happen to have a bit more melanin.
    - Notorious_PWN 17y ago
      Agreed, it took me years of being a jerk to women plus the good fortune of an ex turning into a friend and smacking me with the truth. I think most men go through the thesis-antithesis-synthesis triad with women. Thesis: "All you have to do is be a nice guy." "Be yourself." "The way to get a girlfriend is to be friends with girls." (All those things mothers tell 10-year-old boys.) Once a man realizes that these sorts of guys are a fistful of fail when it comes to women, there's a swing over to... Antithesis: "Women like assholes." "Ignore and mistreat her so she'll be more attracted to you." This is a great way to scoop quantity but not quality, so any decent guy realizes that this is a shitty way to live as well, leading to: Synthesis: Treat women well, but don't be a doormat, and quickly dump the ones who play games or are attracted to asshole behaviors. Another piece of advice -- all you nerdy guys out there who check off all the races except "African American" on dating site preferences -- I thought that was douchebags, not nerds. Generally, nerds are a non-racist crowd. In any case, I think having those sorts of criteria is incredibly self-defeating, for two reasons. The first is that a lot of people on dating sites turn down anyone with racial criteria at all (I'm white, and I stop reading if I see anything other than "Any"). The second is that great matches with top-quality people are pretty rare and rejecting one on something as trivial skin color borders on self-destruction. There's lots of really cute nerdy gals out there who just happen to have a bit more melanin. FTW.
  - sandal 17y ago
    Let's just keep in mind that young women and hackers are not mutually exclusive.
  - Notorious_PWN 17y ago
    It took me years and the experience of a bad marriage to become acceptable to a good woman. I don't think it takes monumental effort to "become acceptable to a good woman." It takes a lot of luck to find one, especially in the US. I had a really good relationship with a great person for 2 years. I don't know how I did it.
- pradocchia 17y ago
  the engineering dance is hugely annoying. my preferred mode is socratic--ask a lot of questions, stake out a minimal position--but with engineer types this is usually misinterpreted as accepting the other person's superior expertise. whereupon said expert proceeds to shut his ears down and hold court. over a period of several weeks i can steer the mode of conversation around, but for casual encounters i have more or less accepted the subordinate position.
  - stcredzero 17y ago
    Maybe we all need captions? [Closed Captioned for the Socially Impaired.] [Engineering Dance in Progress] [Esoteric Knowledge Shown] [Minimal Position Staked Out] [Monologing]
- aswanson 17y ago
  I laugh at the engineering dance anymore and mock those who try to engage me in it. Most of them are so intensely into it they don't even recognize the 'meta' joke I'm making at their expense. Its lots of fun in interviews. Some wannabe alpha dork trying to catch me in programming language/electronics trivia is the best. In a group interview with their peers watching them, some of them getting what game I'm playing, is incredibly entertaining. Try it if you get a chance.
  - mistermann 17y ago
    Please share some anecdotes, should be good for lulz.
ilitirit 17y ago
> Most people have a socially adept friend I don't think this came out very well in my post, but I think I am very socially adept. I'm the "socially adept friend" that you're talking about.
- russell 17y ago
  Well then, you just need to introduce yourself to yourself. :-) My old neighborhood was very close knit with lots of neighborhood functions. Our responsibility was the Halloween party. Me ex knew the wives of everyone, VC's, congressmen, academics, and just plain neighbors. The party was so popular that strangers from 15-20 miles away asked to be invited. We divorced and both moved away. I told one of my daughters that I missed the closeness of the old neighborhood. She told me that my ex was the social glue. It's just an ordinary neighborhood now. My suggestion is to throw occasional, family friendly celebrations (not the standard cocktail party) with a couple of other co-hosts. Family friendly, because the SO's greatly expand the contacts. If there isn't a readily available occasion, celebrate Guy Fawkes day or something suitably oddball. If you make it potluck, it isnt even expensive. It's easy to get a reputation for gatherings of interesting people (except for maybe DC and Manhattan :-).
pj 17y ago
All social groups do the "engineering dance" it's just the engineers do it nonviolently and are better able to decipher intellectual capabilities without damaging their ego. It's a natural law. It's supply and demand. Chickens for example will fight over food if it is not dispersed on the ground so they can all get to it. They will fight and establish a hierarchy so they can all get to the food in an orderly manner. Lions do it. The males eat first because they are strongest, and on and on. The difference with Engineers is that they see the world is full of opportunity for them so there is no lack of demand for their talents. I've seen the "violent" approach with some of the less intelligent bosses I've had. They'll try to fire you or damage your reputation within the organization. The more intelligent bosses give positive incentives to remain and treat their people well. The propensity to rule by force is inversely proportional to IQ. This is true at all levels of biology from amphibians to nation states.

by russell 17y ago

stcredzero 17y ago

Let me say: I think that getting a girlfriend who will up and tell you when you are being an ass (later on, in private) is one of the best things you can do! "Engineering Dance" -- Guilty as charged! Brilliant name for it.

russell 17y ago
I definitely agree on the girlfriend, but from my experience that's even more difficult than learning social graces. It takes a perceptive woman to realize that underneath is a really good guy that just needs some help. Young women are often as dense in their own way as hackers. It took me years and the experience of a bad marriage to become acceptable to a good woman.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  Agreed, it took me years of being a jerk to women plus the good fortune of an ex turning into a friend and smacking me with the truth. My solution also involved perception, but on my part. I was able to spot the potential in a quiet, wallflowery girl at a party. Now I am blessed with a a very sweet, patient, intelligent, perceptive, and demurely sexy girlfriend. Another piece of advice -- all you nerdy guys out there who check off all the races except "African American" on dating site preferences -- do yourself a favor and stop it. There's lots of really cute nerdy gals out there who just happen to have a bit more melanin.
  - Notorious_PWN 17y ago
    Agreed, it took me years of being a jerk to women plus the good fortune of an ex turning into a friend and smacking me with the truth. I think most men go through the thesis-antithesis-synthesis triad with women. Thesis: "All you have to do is be a nice guy." "Be yourself." "The way to get a girlfriend is to be friends with girls." (All those things mothers tell 10-year-old boys.) Once a man realizes that these sorts of guys are a fistful of fail when it comes to women, there's a swing over to... Antithesis: "Women like assholes." "Ignore and mistreat her so she'll be more attracted to you." This is a great way to scoop quantity but not quality, so any decent guy realizes that this is a shitty way to live as well, leading to: Synthesis: Treat women well, but don't be a doormat, and quickly dump the ones who play games or are attracted to asshole behaviors. Another piece of advice -- all you nerdy guys out there who check off all the races except "African American" on dating site preferences -- I thought that was douchebags, not nerds. Generally, nerds are a non-racist crowd. In any case, I think having those sorts of criteria is incredibly self-defeating, for two reasons. The first is that a lot of people on dating sites turn down anyone with racial criteria at all (I'm white, and I stop reading if I see anything other than "Any"). The second is that great matches with top-quality people are pretty rare and rejecting one on something as trivial skin color borders on self-destruction. There's lots of really cute nerdy gals out there who just happen to have a bit more melanin. FTW.
- sandal 17y ago
  Let's just keep in mind that young women and hackers are not mutually exclusive.
- Notorious_PWN 17y ago
  It took me years and the experience of a bad marriage to become acceptable to a good woman. I don't think it takes monumental effort to "become acceptable to a good woman." It takes a lot of luck to find one, especially in the US. I had a really good relationship with a great person for 2 years. I don't know how I did it.
pradocchia 17y ago
the engineering dance is hugely annoying. my preferred mode is socratic--ask a lot of questions, stake out a minimal position--but with engineer types this is usually misinterpreted as accepting the other person's superior expertise. whereupon said expert proceeds to shut his ears down and hold court. over a period of several weeks i can steer the mode of conversation around, but for casual encounters i have more or less accepted the subordinate position.
- stcredzero 17y ago
  Maybe we all need captions? [Closed Captioned for the Socially Impaired.] [Engineering Dance in Progress] [Esoteric Knowledge Shown] [Minimal Position Staked Out] [Monologing]
aswanson 17y ago
I laugh at the engineering dance anymore and mock those who try to engage me in it. Most of them are so intensely into it they don't even recognize the 'meta' joke I'm making at their expense. Its lots of fun in interviews. Some wannabe alpha dork trying to catch me in programming language/electronics trivia is the best. In a group interview with their peers watching them, some of them getting what game I'm playing, is incredibly entertaining. Try it if you get a chance.
- mistermann 17y ago
  Please share some anecdotes, should be good for lulz.

ilitirit 17y ago

> Most people have a socially adept friend I don't think this came out very well in my post, but I think I am very socially adept. I'm the "socially adept friend" that you're talking about.

russell 17y ago
Well then, you just need to introduce yourself to yourself. :-) My old neighborhood was very close knit with lots of neighborhood functions. Our responsibility was the Halloween party. Me ex knew the wives of everyone, VC's, congressmen, academics, and just plain neighbors. The party was so popular that strangers from 15-20 miles away asked to be invited. We divorced and both moved away. I told one of my daughters that I missed the closeness of the old neighborhood. She told me that my ex was the social glue. It's just an ordinary neighborhood now. My suggestion is to throw occasional, family friendly celebrations (not the standard cocktail party) with a couple of other co-hosts. Family friendly, because the SO's greatly expand the contacts. If there isn't a readily available occasion, celebrate Guy Fawkes day or something suitably oddball. If you make it potluck, it isnt even expensive. It's easy to get a reputation for gatherings of interesting people (except for maybe DC and Manhattan :-).

pj 17y ago

All social groups do the "engineering dance" it's just the engineers do it nonviolently and are better able to decipher intellectual capabilities without damaging their ego. It's a natural law. It's supply and demand. Chickens for example will fight over food if it is not dispersed on the ground so they can all get to it. They will fight and establish a hierarchy so they can all get to the food in an orderly manner. Lions do it. The males eat first because they are strongest, and on and on. The difference with Engineers is that they see the world is full of opportunity for them so there is no lack of demand for their talents. I've seen the "violent" approach with some of the less intelligent bosses I've had. They'll try to fire you or damage your reputation within the organization. The more intelligent bosses give positive incentives to remain and treat their people well. The propensity to rule by force is inversely proportional to IQ. This is true at all levels of biology from amphibians to nation states.