6 ms·

Django adopts a Code of Conduct

21 points by Lightning 13y ago

sergiotapia 13y ago
I think this is in response to that female evangilist from SendGrid getting those two guys fired a couple of months ago at a Python conference.
- kingkilr 13y ago
  It's not. Jacob and I started working on a code of conduct for the Django community months before PyCon.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    It's great that we have this from the source! btw - I like the intent of "When we disagree, try to understand why." This does seem to run against the internet grain of, "When in doubt, repeat yourself, and if needed GO ALL CAPS"
- zzzeek 13y ago
  call me crazy but I thought it was one's employer that fires someone, not random people at a conference.
- briancurtin 13y ago
  I was aware of their efforts to implement a Code of Conduct as early as November 2012, around the same time I began work on the Python CoC.
zalew 13y ago
These codes of conduct make the community look like a band of savages. I've been following the django user groups for years and haven't seen anything regarding the issues presented there. What's the reason behind it (other than the #donglegate), if I may ask?
- kingkilr 13y ago
  We've tried to articulate the reason for having a code of conduct here: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need Basically the alternative to writing a code of conduct isn't not to have one, it's for it to be implicit and undocumented. Put another way: we've been moderating #django and other forums for a while, it's not fair that the rules for that were in our heads, and not on paper (bytes).
  - zalew 13y ago
    I get it, every website has a ToS/Rules and such, and I even edited a few when I ran discussion boards. I'm pretty sure most all you said there can be wrapped up in one point "discrimination based on ethnic, sexual and religious grounds is forbidden" and such a statement exists almost by default in every ToS I remember seeing, without special announcements or making a scene. I see sexuality issues mentioned in 5 out of 8 of the points listed there - too obvious or not obvious enough what this CoC is about? Hence my 'band of savages' impression and the feeling these CoC are making a disservice for the people you are trying to protect.
- sneak 13y ago
  Considering they've explicitly thanked notoriously destructive concern-troll Valerie Aurora and her organization The Ada Initiative for assistance, my guess would be direct pressure to support her divisive and unproductive agenda.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacobian 13y ago
    For the record: we reached out to Valerie, not the other way around. We did that because we value her opinion. It's interesting to me that you seem so angry about a group that's trying to bring more people into tech. What are you worried about, exactly?
jdc 13y ago
These rules are blatantly patronizing, and come off a bit like a large organization's standard CYA boilerplate. Something along the lines of HN's commenting guidelines or Hacker School's social rules would be more appropriate.
- sneak 13y ago
  Remember kids: no posting violent animated gifs!
- wiremine 13y ago
  I disagree. I think it is great to see something like this, and I think it reflects the Django community in general. I'm glad to see it being published!
- jacobian 13y ago
  Can you identify specifically what you find patronizing and CYA-ish? Neither were our intentions; help me understand how we've failed there?
  - jdc 13y ago
    Sorry, I realize I am being harsh, and am grateful for all the work of the Django community organizers. Let me clarify my previous remarks. The items under the "Be careful in the words that you choose" heading (which make up a significant part of the document), except for maybe the doxing clause, addresses an apparently antisocial audience, which is patronizing. And what I mean by CYA-ish, is that the intent of the code seems to be to prevent worst-case scenarios. Whereas the HN and Hacker School guidelines aim to boost the level of discourse and friendliness, the Django code offers suggestions on how to avoid getting arrested.
skore 13y ago
Historically, is there any good example for a community that had issues and was improved by a CoC? I'm really interested because - All I've seen over the years is that a community has toxic people in them and it's either because of their actions or (funnily enough) because of their initiative that a CoC gets drafted and put in place. Afterwards, these toxic people now see themselves in charge of upholding the CoC and you get a neat little mall cop situation. It depends on the CoC, of course, but in my experience the actual details only change the rate of decline in community quality. If it does end up getting better, it's often in spite of the CoC, not because of it. Inevitably, people who aren't as anal about the rules find themselves pushed out of the community by sheer frustration over being policed by the mall cops. More often than not, the people who are pushed out happen to be the more productive members of the community (in other areas than policing). I had an experience where I was policed for using the "highly offensive dictionary ``complete cock´´". Not towards a person, just as a general expression. I was so astonished, I had to make a screenshot. It marked the beginning of the end of my participation in that particular forum. A year later, another developer was pushed out of the community for using the word "pussy". As in: "I decided I will finish this code tonight instead of being a pussy." Fun times.
- zzzeek 13y ago
  the Pycon conference adopted a code of conduct and last year saw a record number of women attending and giving presentations: http://www.forbes.com/sites/women2/2013/04/09/record-number-of-women-give-tech-talks-at-pycon-2013/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/women2/2013/04/09/record-number-... clearly you can play the "correlation is not causation" card here but anecdotal evidence of "harm" done by a CoC isn't any better. Also, the CoC's we're talking about here wouldn't eject someone for using the word "pussy". if anything, it would protect this person as the CoC would call for an appropriate reaction, instead of an off-the-cuff overreaction.
  - AdrianRossouw 13y ago
    this is the same conference that spawned dongle-gate?

21 points by Lightning 13y ago

I think this is in response to that female evangilist from SendGrid getting those two guys fired a couple of months ago at a Python conference.

kingkilr 13y ago
It's not. Jacob and I started working on a code of conduct for the Django community months before PyCon.
- mathattack 13y ago
  It's great that we have this from the source! btw - I like the intent of "When we disagree, try to understand why." This does seem to run against the internet grain of, "When in doubt, repeat yourself, and if needed GO ALL CAPS"
zzzeek 13y ago
call me crazy but I thought it was one's employer that fires someone, not random people at a conference.
briancurtin 13y ago
I was aware of their efforts to implement a Code of Conduct as early as November 2012, around the same time I began work on the Python CoC.

zalew 13y ago

These codes of conduct make the community look like a band of savages. I've been following the django user groups for years and haven't seen anything regarding the issues presented there. What's the reason behind it (other than the #donglegate), if I may ask?

kingkilr 13y ago
We've tried to articulate the reason for having a code of conduct here: https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/faq/#why-do-we-need Basically the alternative to writing a code of conduct isn't not to have one, it's for it to be implicit and undocumented. Put another way: we've been moderating #django and other forums for a while, it's not fair that the rules for that were in our heads, and not on paper (bytes).
- zalew 13y ago
  I get it, every website has a ToS/Rules and such, and I even edited a few when I ran discussion boards. I'm pretty sure most all you said there can be wrapped up in one point "discrimination based on ethnic, sexual and religious grounds is forbidden" and such a statement exists almost by default in every ToS I remember seeing, without special announcements or making a scene. I see sexuality issues mentioned in 5 out of 8 of the points listed there - too obvious or not obvious enough what this CoC is about? Hence my 'band of savages' impression and the feeling these CoC are making a disservice for the people you are trying to protect.
sneak 13y ago
Considering they've explicitly thanked notoriously destructive concern-troll Valerie Aurora and her organization The Ada Initiative for assistance, my guess would be direct pressure to support her divisive and unproductive agenda.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jacobian 13y ago
  For the record: we reached out to Valerie, not the other way around. We did that because we value her opinion. It's interesting to me that you seem so angry about a group that's trying to bring more people into tech. What are you worried about, exactly?

jdc 13y ago

These rules are blatantly patronizing, and come off a bit like a large organization's standard CYA boilerplate. Something along the lines of HN's commenting guidelines or Hacker School's social rules would be more appropriate.

sneak 13y ago
Remember kids: no posting violent animated gifs!
wiremine 13y ago
I disagree. I think it is great to see something like this, and I think it reflects the Django community in general. I'm glad to see it being published!
jacobian 13y ago
Can you identify specifically what you find patronizing and CYA-ish? Neither were our intentions; help me understand how we've failed there?
- jdc 13y ago
  Sorry, I realize I am being harsh, and am grateful for all the work of the Django community organizers. Let me clarify my previous remarks. The items under the "Be careful in the words that you choose" heading (which make up a significant part of the document), except for maybe the doxing clause, addresses an apparently antisocial audience, which is patronizing. And what I mean by CYA-ish, is that the intent of the code seems to be to prevent worst-case scenarios. Whereas the HN and Hacker School guidelines aim to boost the level of discourse and friendliness, the Django code offers suggestions on how to avoid getting arrested.

skore 13y ago

Historically, is there any good example for a community that had issues and was improved by a CoC? I'm really interested because - All I've seen over the years is that a community has toxic people in them and it's either because of their actions or (funnily enough) because of their initiative that a CoC gets drafted and put in place. Afterwards, these toxic people now see themselves in charge of upholding the CoC and you get a neat little mall cop situation. It depends on the CoC, of course, but in my experience the actual details only change the rate of decline in community quality. If it does end up getting better, it's often in spite of the CoC, not because of it. Inevitably, people who aren't as anal about the rules find themselves pushed out of the community by sheer frustration over being policed by the mall cops. More often than not, the people who are pushed out happen to be the more productive members of the community (in other areas than policing). I had an experience where I was policed for using the "highly offensive dictionary ``complete cock´´". Not towards a person, just as a general expression. I was so astonished, I had to make a screenshot. It marked the beginning of the end of my participation in that particular forum. A year later, another developer was pushed out of the community for using the word "pussy". As in: "I decided I will finish this code tonight instead of being a pussy." Fun times.

zzzeek 13y ago
the Pycon conference adopted a code of conduct and last year saw a record number of women attending and giving presentations: http://www.forbes.com/sites/women2/2013/04/09/record-number-of-women-give-tech-talks-at-pycon-2013/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/women2/2013/04/09/record-number-... clearly you can play the "correlation is not causation" card here but anecdotal evidence of "harm" done by a CoC isn't any better. Also, the CoC's we're talking about here wouldn't eject someone for using the word "pussy". if anything, it would protect this person as the CoC would call for an appropriate reaction, instead of an off-the-cuff overreaction.
- AdrianRossouw 13y ago
  this is the same conference that spawned dongle-gate?