4 ms·

How on earth does shouting "bullshit" at him like an idiot fratboy make him any more likely to give your concerns any credence? The best it can do is surprise

How on earth does shouting "bullshit" at him like an idiot fratboy make him any more likely to give your concerns any credence? The best it can do is surprise him for a millisecond, then let him write you off as an "unserious" person to be briefly patronized and then devoutly ignored (or worse, add you to a list of "interesting" persons).

ferdo 13y ago
Shouting "bullshit" might nudge a couple of people out of their slumber. If Joseph Welch had been "polite" to Joe McCarthy instead of talking to him like the opportunist that he was, McCarthy would have stayed in business.
- podperson 13y ago
  In what way was Joseph Welch impolite? McCarthy was horribly rude, Welch patiently waited for his turn and spoke simply and eloquently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg
  - ferdo 13y ago
    This isn't politeness on Welch's part. This is how every member of the upper tiers of the MIC should be treated by the entire country: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness...Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad...It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me." When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him: "Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" McCarthy tried to ask Welch another question about Fisher, and Welch cut him off: "Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this further with you. You have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have seen fit to bring it out. And if there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93McCarthy_hearings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93Mc...
    - SkyMarshal 13y ago
      The examples you gave are of eloquent if harsh statesmanship from a sitting Senator, and I absolutely agree that is exactly what needs to be happening now. Ed Snowden is actually doing a really good job of it with his press releases, in fact. But that's a far cry from yelling "bullshit" at the back of a conference room.
      - ferdo 13y ago
        Senators have time and access to be harsh statesmen. We, the Surveilled, have only enough time and access to let them know what we think. What they're doing is bullshit and they should be reminded of it every second of every day by anyone that can tell them.
mindcrime 13y ago
How on earth does shouting "bullshit" at him like an idiot fratboy make him any more likely to give your concerns any credence? Why would you think that was the desired outcome? If I'd been the one heckling him, I can guarantee you my thinking would not have been anything along the lines of "I want this guy to listen to what I have to say, consider it carefully, and then decide something". Why? Because I'm pretty close to 100% sure that Keith Alexander doesn't give a flying fuck what I think about anything, and never will no matter what I say. Hey, in an ideal world, I'd be wrong, and I hope I am. But I wouldn't bet a plug nickel on it. No, if I'd been there and been heckling him, it would have been solely in the hopes of invoking the "someone must go first" aspect of crowd psychology, and hoping to see him booed off of the stage... because I think having that happen, and having it reported that that happened, would send a powerful message to everybody involved... Alexander, members of Congress, the public at large, and other hackers. then let him write you off as an "unserious" person to be briefly patronized I don't see any reason to think that that isn't his opinion of everyone in the crowd from the moment he walked in. Remember, to these NSA guys, people like us are "the enemy". When he stands on a stage and looks out at a crowd, he isn't seeing law-abiding, honest, hard-working American citizens worthy of their Constitutionally guaranteed rights - he's seeing a room full of "potential terrorists".

ferdo 13y ago

Shouting "bullshit" might nudge a couple of people out of their slumber. If Joseph Welch had been "polite" to Joe McCarthy instead of talking to him like the opportunist that he was, McCarthy would have stayed in business.

podperson 13y ago
In what way was Joseph Welch impolite? McCarthy was horribly rude, Welch patiently waited for his turn and spoke simply and eloquently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg
- ferdo 13y ago
  This isn't politeness on Welch's part. This is how every member of the upper tiers of the MIC should be treated by the entire country: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness...Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad...It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me." When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him: "Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" McCarthy tried to ask Welch another question about Fisher, and Welch cut him off: "Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this further with you. You have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have seen fit to bring it out. And if there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93McCarthy_hearings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93Mc...
  - SkyMarshal 13y ago
    The examples you gave are of eloquent if harsh statesmanship from a sitting Senator, and I absolutely agree that is exactly what needs to be happening now. Ed Snowden is actually doing a really good job of it with his press releases, in fact. But that's a far cry from yelling "bullshit" at the back of a conference room.
    - ferdo 13y ago
      Senators have time and access to be harsh statesmen. We, the Surveilled, have only enough time and access to let them know what we think. What they're doing is bullshit and they should be reminded of it every second of every day by anyone that can tell them.

mindcrime 13y ago

How on earth does shouting "bullshit" at him like an idiot fratboy make him any more likely to give your concerns any credence? Why would you think that was the desired outcome? If I'd been the one heckling him, I can guarantee you my thinking would not have been anything along the lines of "I want this guy to listen to what I have to say, consider it carefully, and then decide something". Why? Because I'm pretty close to 100% sure that Keith Alexander doesn't give a flying fuck what I think about anything, and never will no matter what I say. Hey, in an ideal world, I'd be wrong, and I hope I am. But I wouldn't bet a plug nickel on it. No, if I'd been there and been heckling him, it would have been solely in the hopes of invoking the "someone must go first" aspect of crowd psychology, and hoping to see him booed off of the stage... because I think having that happen, and having it reported that that happened, would send a powerful message to everybody involved... Alexander, members of Congress, the public at large, and other hackers. then let him write you off as an "unserious" person to be briefly patronized I don't see any reason to think that that isn't his opinion of everyone in the crowd from the moment he walked in. Remember, to these NSA guys, people like us are "the enemy". When he stands on a stage and looks out at a crowd, he isn't seeing law-abiding, honest, hard-working American citizens worthy of their Constitutionally guaranteed rights - he's seeing a room full of "potential terrorists".