8 ms·

No idea how accurate a depiction of the speech this is, but the article is -- contrary to the title -- portraying the speech as having been warmly received, app

No idea how accurate a depiction of the speech this is, but the article is -- contrary to the title -- portraying the speech as having been warmly received, applauded, with one lone heckler. Now, whether or not one agrees with General Alexander, there are more courteous and productive ways to express yourself than yelling "bullshit".

sp332 13y ago
"Heckler" usually refers to one or a few people in a crowd. Getting booed off the stage would be different.
ferdo 13y ago
How does a guy that makes excuses to spy on us all and lies to Congress deserve any courtesy?
- mseebach 13y ago
  Well, maybe he doesn't, but you're the bigger man so you do it anyway. Turning the other cheek and all. Also, the organisers invited him because they thought you might want to hear what he has to say, so you do it out of respect for them.
  - ferdo 13y ago
    Politicians and bureaucrats won't change until people start treating them with contempt, both socially and professionally. Playing nicey-nice with people that have little to no conscience doesn't work as a method of political change.
    - mseebach 13y ago
      Being rude also doesn't work as a method of political change? It doesn't, and in addition you alienate people who thing being civilised is a good thing. Politicians are already one of the most reviled groups around, and that doesn't discourage them. Stage effective, organised opposition that will actually threaten their plushy careers, then they'll listen.
      - ferdo 13y ago
        There's nothing civilized about being polite to people that are actively undermining our rights. Politeness is reserved for society, not for antisocial personalities.
  - MarcScott 13y ago
    If we keep "turning the other cheek" we'll end up with broken jaws. I'm a polite individual but politeness will only get you so far. At some point people have to make a stand and say what is actually on their minds in as powerful a way as they know how.
- SkyMarshal 13y ago
  How on earth does shouting "bullshit" at him like an idiot fratboy make him any more likely to give your concerns any credence? The best it can do is surprise him for a millisecond, then let him write you off as an "unserious" person to be briefly patronized and then devoutly ignored (or worse, add you to a list of "interesting" persons).
  - ferdo 13y ago
    Shouting "bullshit" might nudge a couple of people out of their slumber. If Joseph Welch had been "polite" to Joe McCarthy instead of talking to him like the opportunist that he was, McCarthy would have stayed in business.
    - podperson 13y ago
      In what way was Joseph Welch impolite? McCarthy was horribly rude, Welch patiently waited for his turn and spoke simply and eloquently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg
      - ferdo 13y ago
        This isn't politeness on Welch's part. This is how every member of the upper tiers of the MIC should be treated by the entire country: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness...Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad...It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me." When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him: "Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" McCarthy tried to ask Welch another question about Fisher, and Welch cut him off: "Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this further with you. You have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have seen fit to bring it out. And if there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93McCarthy_hearings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93Mc...
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
> portraying the speech as having been warmly received, applauded, Disappointing if true. I can't imagine anything that Keith Alexander would say that is deserving of applause. The guy deserves no quarter.
- diminoten 13y ago
  Why, because you elected people who put him in charge? Who really deserves no quarter here?
tomelders 13y ago
Well it's not like anyones going to make a salient and logical point and the NSA is going to turn around and say "You know what, you're right, this is wrong. We'll stop it immediately". So shouting "bullshit" at the top of your voice has the same effect, which is no effect at all. So no one is any worse off for this kind of behaviour. That said, I think the audience should have received him with absolute silence. No applause, no heckling, nothing to betray the mood of the crowd. Let's see how the General Alexander feels about a thousand eyes scrutinising him with no clue as to what they're thinking or planning. Then maybe he'll have an idea about what it feels like to be on this side of the equation.
methehack 13y ago
> there are more courteous and productive ways to express yourself than yelling "bullshit". I disagree. When chatting with Faust, I think it's better to avoid the drawn out conversation and just tell him to fuck off. This Alexander guy is a liar and a felon (lying under oath to congress) and has earned our collective disrespect. He deserves a lot more than "bullshit!" He's a domestic terrorist that's infiltrated the government as far as I'm concerned.
- mturmon 13y ago
  It does not matter what Alexander deserves. What matters is choosing a strategy that will be effective in exposing this intel-gathering to public scrutiny. One person shouting is not such a strategy. It's the difference between individual catharsis and effective political strategy that produces an outcome.
  - tomelders 13y ago
    So what would be a winning strategy in this scenario? I don't think there is one. So let him know you think he's an arsehole while you have the chance because nothing you can say or do is going to change the general's stance on this issue. He's above the law and completely unaccountable. But he's not beyond being called out for being a bad person by another person, and I suspect that's the closest you're going to get to justice on this issue.
    - jackpirate 13y ago
      Standing up and turning your back to him, and remaining in that position would have been a classy way to let the general know you disagree.
      - tomelders 13y ago
        I wholeheartedly agree, and I made a similar point in another comment. But no matter what you do, it's totally futile. The NSA knows what you think, and they don't care.

sp332 13y ago

"Heckler" usually refers to one or a few people in a crowd. Getting booed off the stage would be different.

ferdo 13y ago

How does a guy that makes excuses to spy on us all and lies to Congress deserve any courtesy?

mseebach 13y ago
Well, maybe he doesn't, but you're the bigger man so you do it anyway. Turning the other cheek and all. Also, the organisers invited him because they thought you might want to hear what he has to say, so you do it out of respect for them.
- ferdo 13y ago
  Politicians and bureaucrats won't change until people start treating them with contempt, both socially and professionally. Playing nicey-nice with people that have little to no conscience doesn't work as a method of political change.
  - mseebach 13y ago
    Being rude also doesn't work as a method of political change? It doesn't, and in addition you alienate people who thing being civilised is a good thing. Politicians are already one of the most reviled groups around, and that doesn't discourage them. Stage effective, organised opposition that will actually threaten their plushy careers, then they'll listen.
    - ferdo 13y ago
      There's nothing civilized about being polite to people that are actively undermining our rights. Politeness is reserved for society, not for antisocial personalities.
- MarcScott 13y ago
  If we keep "turning the other cheek" we'll end up with broken jaws. I'm a polite individual but politeness will only get you so far. At some point people have to make a stand and say what is actually on their minds in as powerful a way as they know how.
SkyMarshal 13y ago
How on earth does shouting "bullshit" at him like an idiot fratboy make him any more likely to give your concerns any credence? The best it can do is surprise him for a millisecond, then let him write you off as an "unserious" person to be briefly patronized and then devoutly ignored (or worse, add you to a list of "interesting" persons).
- ferdo 13y ago
  Shouting "bullshit" might nudge a couple of people out of their slumber. If Joseph Welch had been "polite" to Joe McCarthy instead of talking to him like the opportunist that he was, McCarthy would have stayed in business.
  - podperson 13y ago
    In what way was Joseph Welch impolite? McCarthy was horribly rude, Welch patiently waited for his turn and spoke simply and eloquently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po5GlFba5Yg
    - ferdo 13y ago
      This isn't politeness on Welch's part. This is how every member of the upper tiers of the MIC should be treated by the entire country: "Until this moment, Senator, I think I have never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness...Little did I dream you could be so reckless and so cruel as to do an injury to that lad...It is, I regret to say, equally true that I fear he shall always bear a scar needlessly inflicted by you. If it were in my power to forgive you for your reckless cruelty I would do so. I like to think I am a gentle man but your forgiveness will have to come from someone other than me." When McCarthy tried to renew his attack, Welch interrupted him: "Senator, may we not drop this? We know he belonged to the Lawyers Guild. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" McCarthy tried to ask Welch another question about Fisher, and Welch cut him off: "Mr. McCarthy, I will not discuss this further with you. You have sat within six feet of me and could have asked me about Fred Fisher. You have seen fit to bring it out. And if there is a God in Heaven it will do neither you nor your cause any good. I will not discuss it further. I will not ask Mr. Cohn any more questions. You, Mr. Chairman, may, if you will, call the next witness." > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93McCarthy_hearings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_N._Welch#Army.E2.80.93Mc...

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

> portraying the speech as having been warmly received, applauded, Disappointing if true. I can't imagine anything that Keith Alexander would say that is deserving of applause. The guy deserves no quarter.

diminoten 13y ago
Why, because you elected people who put him in charge? Who really deserves no quarter here?

tomelders 13y ago

Well it's not like anyones going to make a salient and logical point and the NSA is going to turn around and say "You know what, you're right, this is wrong. We'll stop it immediately". So shouting "bullshit" at the top of your voice has the same effect, which is no effect at all. So no one is any worse off for this kind of behaviour. That said, I think the audience should have received him with absolute silence. No applause, no heckling, nothing to betray the mood of the crowd. Let's see how the General Alexander feels about a thousand eyes scrutinising him with no clue as to what they're thinking or planning. Then maybe he'll have an idea about what it feels like to be on this side of the equation.

methehack 13y ago

> there are more courteous and productive ways to express yourself than yelling "bullshit". I disagree. When chatting with Faust, I think it's better to avoid the drawn out conversation and just tell him to fuck off. This Alexander guy is a liar and a felon (lying under oath to congress) and has earned our collective disrespect. He deserves a lot more than "bullshit!" He's a domestic terrorist that's infiltrated the government as far as I'm concerned.

mturmon 13y ago
It does not matter what Alexander deserves. What matters is choosing a strategy that will be effective in exposing this intel-gathering to public scrutiny. One person shouting is not such a strategy. It's the difference between individual catharsis and effective political strategy that produces an outcome.
- tomelders 13y ago
  So what would be a winning strategy in this scenario? I don't think there is one. So let him know you think he's an arsehole while you have the chance because nothing you can say or do is going to change the general's stance on this issue. He's above the law and completely unaccountable. But he's not beyond being called out for being a bad person by another person, and I suspect that's the closest you're going to get to justice on this issue.
  - jackpirate 13y ago
    Standing up and turning your back to him, and remaining in that position would have been a classy way to let the general know you disagree.
    - tomelders 13y ago
      I wholeheartedly agree, and I made a similar point in another comment. But no matter what you do, it's totally futile. The NSA knows what you think, and they don't care.