6 ms·

Blame unionization. Why government employees are allowed to unionize will forever remain a mystery, for non-cynical reasons that is.

by tsax 13y ago

grimtrigger 13y ago
In some industries, governments are monopolies or near-monopolies. Take education. In order to even the negotiation, labor is given a monopoly as well. Not saying that it does more good than harm, just stating the reason.
- ChrisBland 13y ago
  Not to start a debate on public sector unionization here but the negotiations are not 'even' in public unions - the union holds all the power. In a private enterprise the two sides are equal, if labor demands too much the business and shut its door and remove their capitol from the marketplace, alternatively if the business demands too much the union can take their labor out of the market (a strike) and the business will suffer. So they have some incentive to work together for a solution. In public sector, there is no one representing the capital side of the equation. You can't just shut down or relocate the TSA because of union demands like you can close a business. We still have to fly, we still have to have police men on the streets and firemen responding to calls. The gvt can continue to spend recklessly and borrow to cover deficits. (See Detroit) while private sector business will eventually run out of money and both capital and labor will be reduced to 0. The union can spend a ton of money to get the people elected who will promise them the work-rules and benefits they want because the politician won't be around when the bills finally come due. Imagine if everyone in your company gave a few % of their salary to influence the hiring of your next CFO, or VP of HR and would only back candidates that would promise to increase pay. That is the power that the public sector unions have which leads to an imbalance in negotiations.
hga 13y ago
What's so difficult to understand? Governments "negotiate" with public sector unions and the taxpayers foot the bill. Public sector unions and union members then support the party of government (currently more the Democrats than Republicans, but that's subject to change) with money and legwork. It's a great game until the government runs out of money; see Detroit for the current stark object lesson in that.
mikeash 13y ago
I can't think of a single complaint I have with the TSA, of which I have many, which could reasonably be blamed on unionization.
- radiusq 13y ago
  Being protected by a union lets TSA workers conduct their job however they want. Every complaint you have stems from this.
- tsax 13y ago
  Right because near-impossibility of firing someone, and the magnified principal-agent problems of public sector managers negotiating with psu's don't influence behavior in any way.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    My complaints involve their mission, their rules, their equipment, and their techniques. None of which are exacerbated by unionization.
    - tsax 13y ago
      Formal spec vs delivered software - there's a similar case here. In any real world organization, the formal written mission and rules are not exactly the ones that are in operation. Unionization especially public-sector unionization further disconnects employees from the rules and the techniques they are _supposed_ to follow. Now this could go either way, but considering the psychopaths and bums that the TSA hires, and the numerous cases we know of theft, I would say that unionization makes things worse with the rules and techniques.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        I've never encountered a situation where I was annoyed at TSA because they didn't follow the "formal spec" properly, and wished they had followed it better. In fact, quite the contrary: I have, very occasionally, had places where the TSA let something slide that they officially shouldn't have, and made my life slightly easier as a result. I don't know why you have such a hard time believing me on this....

Blame unionization. Why government employees are allowed to unionize will forever remain a mystery, for non-cynical reasons that is.

by tsax 13y ago

Blame unionization. Why government employees are allowed to unionize will forever remain a mystery, for non-cynical reasons that is.

grimtrigger 13y ago

In some industries, governments are monopolies or near-monopolies. Take education. In order to even the negotiation, labor is given a monopoly as well. Not saying that it does more good than harm, just stating the reason.

ChrisBland 13y ago
Not to start a debate on public sector unionization here but the negotiations are not 'even' in public unions - the union holds all the power. In a private enterprise the two sides are equal, if labor demands too much the business and shut its door and remove their capitol from the marketplace, alternatively if the business demands too much the union can take their labor out of the market (a strike) and the business will suffer. So they have some incentive to work together for a solution. In public sector, there is no one representing the capital side of the equation. You can't just shut down or relocate the TSA because of union demands like you can close a business. We still have to fly, we still have to have police men on the streets and firemen responding to calls. The gvt can continue to spend recklessly and borrow to cover deficits. (See Detroit) while private sector business will eventually run out of money and both capital and labor will be reduced to 0. The union can spend a ton of money to get the people elected who will promise them the work-rules and benefits they want because the politician won't be around when the bills finally come due. Imagine if everyone in your company gave a few % of their salary to influence the hiring of your next CFO, or VP of HR and would only back candidates that would promise to increase pay. That is the power that the public sector unions have which leads to an imbalance in negotiations.

hga 13y ago

What's so difficult to understand? Governments "negotiate" with public sector unions and the taxpayers foot the bill. Public sector unions and union members then support the party of government (currently more the Democrats than Republicans, but that's subject to change) with money and legwork. It's a great game until the government runs out of money; see Detroit for the current stark object lesson in that.

mikeash 13y ago

I can't think of a single complaint I have with the TSA, of which I have many, which could reasonably be blamed on unionization.

radiusq 13y ago
Being protected by a union lets TSA workers conduct their job however they want. Every complaint you have stems from this.
tsax 13y ago
Right because near-impossibility of firing someone, and the magnified principal-agent problems of public sector managers negotiating with psu's don't influence behavior in any way.
- mikeash 13y ago
  My complaints involve their mission, their rules, their equipment, and their techniques. None of which are exacerbated by unionization.
  - tsax 13y ago
    Formal spec vs delivered software - there's a similar case here. In any real world organization, the formal written mission and rules are not exactly the ones that are in operation. Unionization especially public-sector unionization further disconnects employees from the rules and the techniques they are _supposed_ to follow. Now this could go either way, but considering the psychopaths and bums that the TSA hires, and the numerous cases we know of theft, I would say that unionization makes things worse with the rules and techniques.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      I've never encountered a situation where I was annoyed at TSA because they didn't follow the "formal spec" properly, and wished they had followed it better. In fact, quite the contrary: I have, very occasionally, had places where the TSA let something slide that they officially shouldn't have, and made my life slightly easier as a result. I don't know why you have such a hard time believing me on this....