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Sure, but I think he ends up missing the mark. Ultimately his talk boils down to "let's revolutionize programming!" But as I said that ends up being fairly trit

Sure, but I think he ends up missing the mark. Ultimately his talk boils down to "let's revolutionize programming!" But as I said that ends up being fairly trite. As for testing, integration, building, and refactoring I think it's hugely mistaken to view them as "symptoms of a problem". They are tools. And they aren't just tools used to grapple with explosions of complexity, they are tools that very much help us keep complexity in check. To use an analogy, it's not as though these development tools are like a hugely powerful locomotive that can drag whatever sorry piece of crap codebase you have out into the world regardless of its faults. Instead, they are tools that enable and encourage building better codebases, more componentized, more reliable, more understandable, etc. Continuous integration techniques combined with robust unit and integration testing encourage developers to reduce their dependencies and the complexity of their code down as much as possible. They also help facilitate refactoring which makes reduction of complexity easier. And they actively discourage fragility, either at a component level or at a product/service level. Without these tools there is a break in the feedback loop. Coders would just do whatever the fuck they wanted and try to smush it all together and then they'd spend the second 90% of development time (having already spent the first) stomping on everything until it builds and runs and sort of works. With more modern development processes coders feel the pain of fragile code because it means their tests fail. They feel the pain of spaghetti dependencies because they break the build too often. And they feel that pain much closer to the point of the act that caused it, so that they can fix it and learn their lesson at a much lower cost and hopefully without as much disruption of the work of others. With any luck these tools will be even better in the future and will make it even easier to produce high quality code closer to the level of irreducible complexity of the project than is possible today. These aren't the only ways that programming will change for the better but they are examples which I think it's easy for people to write off as not core to the process of programming.

StandardFuture 13y ago
Hrmmm ... you seem to still be tremendously missing the overarching purpose of this speech. Obviously to delve proficiently into every aspect of programming through the ages and why things are the way they are now (e.g. what 'won' out and why) would require a Course and not a talk. You seem to think that the points brought up in this talk diminish the idea that things now DO work. However, what was stressed was avoiding the trap of discontinuing the pursuit of thinking outside the box. I am also questioning how much of the video you actually paid attention too (note: I am not questioning how much you watched). I say this because your critique is focused on the topics that he covered in the earlier parts of the video and then (LOL) you quickly criticize him for talking about concurrency (in your previous comment)... I clearly remember him talking about programming on Massively Parallel architectures without the need for sequential logic control via multiplexing using threads and locks. I imagine, though, it is possible you did not critique this point because it is obvious (to everyone) that this is the ultimate direction of computing (synchronously with the end of Moore’s law as well). Ahhh now that’s interesting, we are entering an era where there could possibly be a legitimate use to trying/conceiving new methods of programming? Who would have thought? Maybe you just realized that you would have looked extremely foolish spending time on critiquing that point? IDK … excuse my ignorance. Also you constantly argue FOR basic management techniques and methods (as if that countermoves Bret’s arguments) … but you fail to realize that spatial structuring of programs would be a visual management technique in itself that could THEN too have tools developed along with it that would be isomorphic to modern integration, testing management. But I won’t bother delving into that subject as I am much more ignorant on this and more importantly … I would hate to upset you, Master. Oh and btw (before accusations fly) I am not a Hero worshiper … this is the first time I have ever even heard of Bret Victor. Please don’t gasp too loud.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  I definetely get what OP was trying to say. Bret presented something that sounds a lot like the future even though it definitely isn't. Some of listed alternatives like direct data manipulation, or visual languages or non-text languages have MAJOR deficiences and stumbling blocks that prevented them from achieving dominance. Though in some cases it basically does boil down to which is cheaper, more familiar.
  - jfarmer 13y ago
    I think the title of Bret's presentation was meant to be ironic. I think he meant something like this. If you want to see the future of computing just look at all the things in computing's past that we've "forgotten" or "written off." Maybe we should look at some of those ideas we've dismissed, those ideas that we've decided "have MAJOR deficiencies and stumbling blocks", and write them back in? The times have changed. Our devices are faster, denser, and cheaper now. Maybe let's go revisit the past and see what we wrote off because our devices then were too slow, too sparse, or too expensive. We shouldn't be so arrogant as to think that we can see clearer or farther than the people who came before. That's a theme I see in many of Bret's talks. I spend my days thinking about programming education and I can relate. The art when it comes to programming education today is a not even close to the ideas described in Seymour Papert's Mindstorms, which he wrote in 1980. LOGO had its failings but at least it was visionary. What are MOOCs doing to push the state of the art, really? Not that it's their job to push the state of the art -- but somebody should be! This is consistent with other thing's he's written. For example, read A Brief Rant on the Future of Interaction Design (http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/ http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesi...). Not only does he use the same word in his title ("future"), but he makes similar points and relates the future to the past in a similar way. "And yes, the fruits of this research are still crude, rudimentary, and sometimes kind of dubious. But look — In 1968 — three years before the invention of the microprocessor — Alan Kay stumbled across Don Bitzer's early flat-panel display. Its resolution was 16 pixels by 16 pixels — an impressive improvement over their earlier 4 pixel by 4 pixel display. Alan saw those 256 glowing orange squares, and he went home, and he picked up a pen, and he drew a picture of a goddamn iPad. [picture of a device sketch that looks essentially identical to an iPad] And then he chased that carrot through decades of groundbreaking research, much of which is responsible for the hardware and software that you're currently reading this with. That's the kind of ambitious, long-range vision I'm talking about. Pictures Under Glass is old news. Let's start using our hands."

StandardFuture 13y ago

Hrmmm ... you seem to still be tremendously missing the overarching purpose of this speech. Obviously to delve proficiently into every aspect of programming through the ages and why things are the way they are now (e.g. what 'won' out and why) would require a Course and not a talk. You seem to think that the points brought up in this talk diminish the idea that things now DO work. However, what was stressed was avoiding the trap of discontinuing the pursuit of thinking outside the box. I am also questioning how much of the video you actually paid attention too (note: I am not questioning how much you watched). I say this because your critique is focused on the topics that he covered in the earlier parts of the video and then (LOL) you quickly criticize him for talking about concurrency (in your previous comment)... I clearly remember him talking about programming on Massively Parallel architectures without the need for sequential logic control via multiplexing using threads and locks. I imagine, though, it is possible you did not critique this point because it is obvious (to everyone) that this is the ultimate direction of computing (synchronously with the end of Moore’s law as well). Ahhh now that’s interesting, we are entering an era where there could possibly be a legitimate use to trying/conceiving new methods of programming? Who would have thought? Maybe you just realized that you would have looked extremely foolish spending time on critiquing that point? IDK … excuse my ignorance. Also you constantly argue FOR basic management techniques and methods (as if that countermoves Bret’s arguments) … but you fail to realize that spatial structuring of programs would be a visual management technique in itself that could THEN too have tools developed along with it that would be isomorphic to modern integration, testing management. But I won’t bother delving into that subject as I am much more ignorant on this and more importantly … I would hate to upset you, Master. Oh and btw (before accusations fly) I am not a Hero worshiper … this is the first time I have ever even heard of Bret Victor. Please don’t gasp too loud.

Ygg2 13y ago
I definetely get what OP was trying to say. Bret presented something that sounds a lot like the future even though it definitely isn't. Some of listed alternatives like direct data manipulation, or visual languages or non-text languages have MAJOR deficiences and stumbling blocks that prevented them from achieving dominance. Though in some cases it basically does boil down to which is cheaper, more familiar.
- jfarmer 13y ago
  I think the title of Bret's presentation was meant to be ironic. I think he meant something like this. If you want to see the future of computing just look at all the things in computing's past that we've "forgotten" or "written off." Maybe we should look at some of those ideas we've dismissed, those ideas that we've decided "have MAJOR deficiencies and stumbling blocks", and write them back in? The times have changed. Our devices are faster, denser, and cheaper now. Maybe let's go revisit the past and see what we wrote off because our devices then were too slow, too sparse, or too expensive. We shouldn't be so arrogant as to think that we can see clearer or farther than the people who came before. That's a theme I see in many of Bret's talks. I spend my days thinking about programming education and I can relate. The art when it comes to programming education today is a not even close to the ideas described in Seymour Papert's Mindstorms, which he wrote in 1980. LOGO had its failings but at least it was visionary. What are MOOCs doing to push the state of the art, really? Not that it's their job to push the state of the art -- but somebody should be! This is consistent with other thing's he's written. For example, read A Brief Rant on the Future of Interaction Design (http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/ http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesi...). Not only does he use the same word in his title ("future"), but he makes similar points and relates the future to the past in a similar way. "And yes, the fruits of this research are still crude, rudimentary, and sometimes kind of dubious. But look — In 1968 — three years before the invention of the microprocessor — Alan Kay stumbled across Don Bitzer's early flat-panel display. Its resolution was 16 pixels by 16 pixels — an impressive improvement over their earlier 4 pixel by 4 pixel display. Alan saw those 256 glowing orange squares, and he went home, and he picked up a pen, and he drew a picture of a goddamn iPad. [picture of a device sketch that looks essentially identical to an iPad] And then he chased that carrot through decades of groundbreaking research, much of which is responsible for the hardware and software that you're currently reading this with. That's the kind of ambitious, long-range vision I'm talking about. Pictures Under Glass is old news. Let's start using our hands."