6 ms·

I think by now most people have learned never to trust Google (or Oracle or Microsoft, etc). This certainly doesn't come as a surprise to me, and I fully expect

by RyanZAG 13y ago

I think by now most people have learned never to trust Google (or Oracle or Microsoft, etc). This certainly doesn't come as a surprise to me, and I fully expect them to pull as many anti competitive stunts on Chrome and Android in the future as they possibly can. The question is: what can we do to mitigate this? And no, choosing not to use Google products is about as useful as choosing not to use MS Windows was 10 years ago. We need to try and find solutions now before this becomes a serious problem.

VikingCoder 13y ago
> I think by now most people have learned never to trust Google (or Oracle or Microsoft, etc). I haven't, and I think you're wrong to make that conclusion. It's a business, and I trust it to act like a business. It operates in multiple countries, and I trust it to follow the laws it has to. I use their services, and I trust them to act as professionally with my data as I'd expect any of my best friends to do, if they were running Google. I've been disappointed with some of Google's decisions, but that's a completely different animal from revoking my TRUST in them.
- RyanZAG 13y ago
  Let me rephrase what I said to be more specific: Five or ten years ago, I trusted Google to act in the best interests of the web and humanity in general. This is the specific trust that I and many others have now lost. It can now be assumed that Google will act in their own corporate bests interests whenever possible. This is not terribly surprising, as it is the basic mode of operation for companies such as Microsoft and Oracle, but it is a change for Google. I now trust Google to wiretap my communications in any and all countries with surveillance programs. I now trust Google to terminate any projects that are beneficial to the market but not to Google. I expect Google to modify public-friendly projects such as Chrome and Android to be public-hostile and Google-friendly. I'm very sure I am not alone here. I'm talking to the people here on HN who feel the same way that I do: How are we going to make this work? Should we fork Chrome and Android and try to get community backing for forks that we can control before it becomes too late? If we act now, we may be able to do something before we end up with the kind of stagnation we had from IE6.
  - smtddr 13y ago
    > I now trust Google to wiretap my communications in any and all countries with surveillance programs. Let's not focus anger at the wrong people. USgov is to blame for that stuff, not Google. Google is an American company and at the end of the day, they _must_ adhere to the law, right? I personally don't care if they fight the law, or obey it immediately. I only care that the law was made in the first place and which groups of people made the law. No point debating what a company should/shouldn't/did/didn't do in the face of an unfair law. Focus should be on the flaw in the system that allowed the law to be created to begin with.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - onli 13y ago
      An individual or a corporation is not only to be judged by the laws that are applied. It is also judged by the laws above those laws, like human rights. Someone violating those laws can by prosecuted, and in every case, they can be judged on an ethical level. If a company bows to laws that are unethical, that lead to the possibility of a huge surveillance regime occupying the world, it is perfectly sound to focus also on the people complying and not only on the people making the laws. There is always another option.
      - VikingCoder 13y ago
        > If a company bows to laws that are unethical, None of you people have ever listed another alternative for them, that is based on anything but fantasy.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - ceol 13y ago
      I think some of the anger might come from the fact that any normal person, or any normal group of people, don't have the clout to influence those kinds of laws — Google does. However, they chose to bow to those laws (and charge the government for the privilege.) If Google, the one company tech enthusiasts would trust to be on their side, doesn't want to change those laws, what chance do you think any of us have?
bad_user 13y ago
> choosing not to use Google products is about as useful as choosing not to use MS Windows was 10 years ago Actually people that decided not to use Windows 10 years ago are precisely the reason for why Microsoft is more and more irrelevant today. They've been haemorrhaging mind-share amongst developers ever since early 2000. This isn't something that happens overnight, but when losing the mind-share of influencers, the long-term effects are devastating. And developers in the software industry are the ultimate influencers. Pick any successful product that's eroding Microsoft's market-share, anything at all. You'll discover an interesting pattern - the early adopters, the influencers, the ones providing the much-needed spark are exactly the people that stopped using Microsoft's products 10 years ago. And yes, most people are still on Windows, but they aren't locked to Windows any more and guess who made that happen?
- stephengillie 13y ago
  Like how videogame developers started shifting from DirectX in 2003 and many now write for open standards, like OpenGL & OpenAL? Except that didn't happen. The videogame industry got too caught up in the nVidia vs ATI fanboy wars, allowing Microsoft's proprietary standards (or however I should refer to DirectX) to become the de facto industry standard.
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    "Like how videogame developers started shifting from DirectX in 2003 and many now write for open standards, like OpenGL & OpenAL?" Hey man, I'm working on it! Give me a break.
  - nkassis 13y ago
    There has been some recent changes around this situation such as Microsoft now implementing WebGL in IE11 which means they are starting to loose some of their stronghold on the graphic api world.
    - stephengillie 13y ago
      I don't think it's a case of Microsoft consciously releasing their stranglehold so much as new devices (smartphones) forcing a change in the videogame landscape.
waitwhatwhoa 13y ago
To answer your question: build compelling software that requires inbound connectivity. If users (voters, customers, ...) want to use their Internet connection where the server is in the home, the providers will eventually step up and take notice. I hate "let the market decide" as much as the next guy, but I don't quite see a better way to do this. One plug[1] is worth a thousand deleted Google accounts. 1. http://meetplug.com/launch/ http://meetplug.com/launch/

by RyanZAG 13y ago

VikingCoder 13y ago

> I think by now most people have learned never to trust Google (or Oracle or Microsoft, etc). I haven't, and I think you're wrong to make that conclusion. It's a business, and I trust it to act like a business. It operates in multiple countries, and I trust it to follow the laws it has to. I use their services, and I trust them to act as professionally with my data as I'd expect any of my best friends to do, if they were running Google. I've been disappointed with some of Google's decisions, but that's a completely different animal from revoking my TRUST in them.

RyanZAG 13y ago
Let me rephrase what I said to be more specific: Five or ten years ago, I trusted Google to act in the best interests of the web and humanity in general. This is the specific trust that I and many others have now lost. It can now be assumed that Google will act in their own corporate bests interests whenever possible. This is not terribly surprising, as it is the basic mode of operation for companies such as Microsoft and Oracle, but it is a change for Google. I now trust Google to wiretap my communications in any and all countries with surveillance programs. I now trust Google to terminate any projects that are beneficial to the market but not to Google. I expect Google to modify public-friendly projects such as Chrome and Android to be public-hostile and Google-friendly. I'm very sure I am not alone here. I'm talking to the people here on HN who feel the same way that I do: How are we going to make this work? Should we fork Chrome and Android and try to get community backing for forks that we can control before it becomes too late? If we act now, we may be able to do something before we end up with the kind of stagnation we had from IE6.
- smtddr 13y ago
  > I now trust Google to wiretap my communications in any and all countries with surveillance programs. Let's not focus anger at the wrong people. USgov is to blame for that stuff, not Google. Google is an American company and at the end of the day, they _must_ adhere to the law, right? I personally don't care if they fight the law, or obey it immediately. I only care that the law was made in the first place and which groups of people made the law. No point debating what a company should/shouldn't/did/didn't do in the face of an unfair law. Focus should be on the flaw in the system that allowed the law to be created to begin with.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - onli 13y ago
    An individual or a corporation is not only to be judged by the laws that are applied. It is also judged by the laws above those laws, like human rights. Someone violating those laws can by prosecuted, and in every case, they can be judged on an ethical level. If a company bows to laws that are unethical, that lead to the possibility of a huge surveillance regime occupying the world, it is perfectly sound to focus also on the people complying and not only on the people making the laws. There is always another option.
    - VikingCoder 13y ago
      > If a company bows to laws that are unethical, None of you people have ever listed another alternative for them, that is based on anything but fantasy.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - ceol 13y ago
    I think some of the anger might come from the fact that any normal person, or any normal group of people, don't have the clout to influence those kinds of laws — Google does. However, they chose to bow to those laws (and charge the government for the privilege.) If Google, the one company tech enthusiasts would trust to be on their side, doesn't want to change those laws, what chance do you think any of us have?

bad_user 13y ago

> choosing not to use Google products is about as useful as choosing not to use MS Windows was 10 years ago Actually people that decided not to use Windows 10 years ago are precisely the reason for why Microsoft is more and more irrelevant today. They've been haemorrhaging mind-share amongst developers ever since early 2000. This isn't something that happens overnight, but when losing the mind-share of influencers, the long-term effects are devastating. And developers in the software industry are the ultimate influencers. Pick any successful product that's eroding Microsoft's market-share, anything at all. You'll discover an interesting pattern - the early adopters, the influencers, the ones providing the much-needed spark are exactly the people that stopped using Microsoft's products 10 years ago. And yes, most people are still on Windows, but they aren't locked to Windows any more and guess who made that happen?

stephengillie 13y ago
Like how videogame developers started shifting from DirectX in 2003 and many now write for open standards, like OpenGL & OpenAL? Except that didn't happen. The videogame industry got too caught up in the nVidia vs ATI fanboy wars, allowing Microsoft's proprietary standards (or however I should refer to DirectX) to become the de facto industry standard.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  "Like how videogame developers started shifting from DirectX in 2003 and many now write for open standards, like OpenGL & OpenAL?" Hey man, I'm working on it! Give me a break.
- nkassis 13y ago
  There has been some recent changes around this situation such as Microsoft now implementing WebGL in IE11 which means they are starting to loose some of their stronghold on the graphic api world.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    I don't think it's a case of Microsoft consciously releasing their stranglehold so much as new devices (smartphones) forcing a change in the videogame landscape.

waitwhatwhoa 13y ago

To answer your question: build compelling software that requires inbound connectivity. If users (voters, customers, ...) want to use their Internet connection where the server is in the home, the providers will eventually step up and take notice. I hate "let the market decide" as much as the next guy, but I don't quite see a better way to do this. One plug[1] is worth a thousand deleted Google accounts. 1. http://meetplug.com/launch/ http://meetplug.com/launch/