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"Those of us who believe MIT deserves some blame for subsequent events" To be clear do you mean that MIT deserves blame for the suicide?

by larrys 13y ago

chaostheory 13y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong but they deserve blame for initiating the destruction of someone's life (jail time and fines in the millions) and not doing anything to stop it like JSTOR did. Yes not everyone offs themselves when their lives are ruined, but there are a lot of people who do. Now they're essentially trying to be free of any blame by releasing a CYA document during a time when everyone's attention will be on something else. Even if Aaron was still alive, the things MIT did would be no less wrong.
- res0nat0r 13y ago
  > Correct me if I'm wrong but they deserve blame for initiating the destruction of someone's life (jail time and fines in the millions) So Aaron had nothing to do with getting himself into the situation that he did?
  - chaostheory 13y ago
    Of course he did, just like Rosa Parks and MLK Jr knowingly broke laws that they felt were unjust, but that's besides the point. The main point is that MIT could have done what JSTOR did and made it right. They didn't. To add insult to injury, now they're doing everything they can to hide information relevant to the case. I also really hate arguments that blame the victim.
    - grauniad 13y ago
      Jesus Christ, you're serious here? He broke the law. Then he committed suicide. I don't think there's much debate to be had about where any blame lies.
      - chaostheory 13y ago
        larrys, you haven't disputed any of my points other than telling me that I'm wrong, which makes sense since you're unwilling to use your real HN account. > He broke the law. Was the law that was broken make sense? Was the response to a victimless crime appropriate? > Then he committed suicide. You're acting like people dealing with a serious mental illness for years can easily make the same mundane choices that people without mental illness do everyday. It's more complicated than that.
        grauniad 13y ago
        I'm not larrys. All I'm saying is that he clearly had his own demons, and his own problems. He decided to break the law, knowing what the result would be. Then he decided to end his own life. A sad tale, but the law is the law.
        chaostheory 13y ago
        Yeah whatever. > A sad tale, but the law is the law. Some laws are unjust, ridiculous, or both. There's also something called "the spirit of the law" as well.
  - burntsushi 13y ago
    There exists such a thing known as a disproportionate response. I assumed that was the implication here. (Not that Aaron did nothing wrong, but that the response to his wrong-doing was wildly disproportionate.)
    - danielweber 13y ago
      People are discussing when the disproportionate response occurred. Was it calling any police at all? Was it a prosecutor offering a six-month plea bargain to a charge that likely would not have gotten Swartz any jail time at all even if guilty on all charges?
      - burntsushi 13y ago
        What? That wasn't what I responded to. Look at the progression of the parent comments: >> Correct me if I'm wrong but they deserve blame for initiating the >> destruction of someone's life (jail time and fines in the millions) > So Aaron had nothing to do with getting himself into the situation that > he did? There exists such a thing known as a disproportionate response. I assumed that was the implication here. (Not that Aaron did nothing wrong, but that the response to his wrong-doing was wildly disproportionate.) My response is saying that nobody is claiming Aaron doesn't deserve any blame. Only that there was a disproportionate response. Just because X acted wrongly doesn't mean Y had to have acted rightly.
        res0nat0r 13y ago
        The question above: Is a 6 month sentence and no jail time plea bargain considered disproportionate?
        chaostheory 13y ago
        That was only mentioned AFTER he died. Let's take a look at their press release: http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR.html http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR.... "AARON SWARTZ, 24, was charged in an indictment with wire fraud, computer fraud, unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer, and recklessly damaging a protected computer. If convicted on these charges, SWARTZ faces up to 35 years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million." Gee I wonder why someone would contemplate suicide?
bguthrie 13y ago
Depression is a complicated disease with many causes, and no one knows exactly what was going through Aaron's mind. But I believe his depression was in large part situational, and that yes, MIT is at least partly to blame for that situation. At the bare minimum, whether or not you believe MIT aided the prosecution over the defense (and I believe they did), it seems clear to me that Aaron and his family (his father is an alumnus, and worked for the MIT Media Lab) deserved better than "neutrality" from the MIT administration, if for no other reason than that I can't think of a single conceivable technical reason to call what Aaron did "felony" hacking. By standing pat, MIT also contributed to the ongoing prosecutorial weaponization of laws like the CFAA, which makes a felony of a wide range of activities that most hackers would not even categorize as misdemeanors, to say nothing of crimes that bar you from voting or holding most jobs. It is a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.
D_Alex 13y ago
Well... I believe they deserve some blame. This is well argued by others, I shall not bother rephrasing their statements. Now to be clear: do you believe that MIT deserves no blame?

"Those of us who believe MIT deserves some blame for subsequent events" To be clear do you mean that MIT deserves blame for the suicide?

by larrys 13y ago

"Those of us who believe MIT deserves some blame for subsequent events" To be clear do you mean that MIT deserves blame for the suicide?

chaostheory 13y ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but they deserve blame for initiating the destruction of someone's life (jail time and fines in the millions) and not doing anything to stop it like JSTOR did. Yes not everyone offs themselves when their lives are ruined, but there are a lot of people who do. Now they're essentially trying to be free of any blame by releasing a CYA document during a time when everyone's attention will be on something else. Even if Aaron was still alive, the things MIT did would be no less wrong.

res0nat0r 13y ago
> Correct me if I'm wrong but they deserve blame for initiating the destruction of someone's life (jail time and fines in the millions) So Aaron had nothing to do with getting himself into the situation that he did?
- chaostheory 13y ago
  Of course he did, just like Rosa Parks and MLK Jr knowingly broke laws that they felt were unjust, but that's besides the point. The main point is that MIT could have done what JSTOR did and made it right. They didn't. To add insult to injury, now they're doing everything they can to hide information relevant to the case. I also really hate arguments that blame the victim.
  - grauniad 13y ago
    Jesus Christ, you're serious here? He broke the law. Then he committed suicide. I don't think there's much debate to be had about where any blame lies.
    - chaostheory 13y ago
      larrys, you haven't disputed any of my points other than telling me that I'm wrong, which makes sense since you're unwilling to use your real HN account. > He broke the law. Was the law that was broken make sense? Was the response to a victimless crime appropriate? > Then he committed suicide. You're acting like people dealing with a serious mental illness for years can easily make the same mundane choices that people without mental illness do everyday. It's more complicated than that.
      - grauniad 13y ago
        I'm not larrys. All I'm saying is that he clearly had his own demons, and his own problems. He decided to break the law, knowing what the result would be. Then he decided to end his own life. A sad tale, but the law is the law.
        chaostheory 13y ago
        Yeah whatever. > A sad tale, but the law is the law. Some laws are unjust, ridiculous, or both. There's also something called "the spirit of the law" as well.
- burntsushi 13y ago
  There exists such a thing known as a disproportionate response. I assumed that was the implication here. (Not that Aaron did nothing wrong, but that the response to his wrong-doing was wildly disproportionate.)
  - danielweber 13y ago
    People are discussing when the disproportionate response occurred. Was it calling any police at all? Was it a prosecutor offering a six-month plea bargain to a charge that likely would not have gotten Swartz any jail time at all even if guilty on all charges?
    - burntsushi 13y ago
      What? That wasn't what I responded to. Look at the progression of the parent comments: >> Correct me if I'm wrong but they deserve blame for initiating the >> destruction of someone's life (jail time and fines in the millions) > So Aaron had nothing to do with getting himself into the situation that > he did? There exists such a thing known as a disproportionate response. I assumed that was the implication here. (Not that Aaron did nothing wrong, but that the response to his wrong-doing was wildly disproportionate.) My response is saying that nobody is claiming Aaron doesn't deserve any blame. Only that there was a disproportionate response. Just because X acted wrongly doesn't mean Y had to have acted rightly.
      - res0nat0r 13y ago
        The question above: Is a 6 month sentence and no jail time plea bargain considered disproportionate?
        chaostheory 13y ago
        That was only mentioned AFTER he died. Let's take a look at their press release: http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR.html http://www.justice.gov/usao/ma/news/2011/July/SwartzAaronPR.... "AARON SWARTZ, 24, was charged in an indictment with wire fraud, computer fraud, unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer, and recklessly damaging a protected computer. If convicted on these charges, SWARTZ faces up to 35 years in prison, to be followed by three years of supervised release, restitution, forfeiture and a fine of up to $1 million." Gee I wonder why someone would contemplate suicide?

bguthrie 13y ago

Depression is a complicated disease with many causes, and no one knows exactly what was going through Aaron's mind. But I believe his depression was in large part situational, and that yes, MIT is at least partly to blame for that situation. At the bare minimum, whether or not you believe MIT aided the prosecution over the defense (and I believe they did), it seems clear to me that Aaron and his family (his father is an alumnus, and worked for the MIT Media Lab) deserved better than "neutrality" from the MIT administration, if for no other reason than that I can't think of a single conceivable technical reason to call what Aaron did "felony" hacking. By standing pat, MIT also contributed to the ongoing prosecutorial weaponization of laws like the CFAA, which makes a felony of a wide range of activities that most hackers would not even categorize as misdemeanors, to say nothing of crimes that bar you from voting or holding most jobs. It is a terrible precedent no matter how you look at it.

D_Alex 13y ago

Well... I believe they deserve some blame. This is well argued by others, I shall not bother rephrasing their statements. Now to be clear: do you believe that MIT deserves no blame?